Military Guns and Ammunition
Hosted by gatnerd
This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.
- 3372
MEMBERS - 192572
MESSAGES - 1
POSTS TODAY
Discussions
Squad Support Weapon Army Guns 20+mm
From: stancrist
22/6/22
EmericD said:I'm saying that you can't make a man-portable grenade launcher with the destructive power of a 30 x 173 mm AC...
Okay. The only trouble is, I never said a grenade launcher would have the same destructive power as a 30mm cannon.
What I said is the video is an example of airburst fragmentation which makes me think the concept could possibly work.
The 30mm cannon airburst videos show fragmentation effect much better than, for example, 40mm grenade airbursts.
- Edited 22 June 2022 21:18 by stancrist
From: Murpat
23/6/22
300 metres and you are struggling - even with IR - except that it is high power - e.g. vehicle powered.
From: EmericD
23/6/22
stancrist said:You have a very similar "failure point" with rifle grenades. You can't load the grenade onto the rifle, take precise aim, and launch the grenade, in just 2 seconds. You need to expose yourself and stay perfectly motionless for much more than that.
Missed your edit.
Are you really (and seriously) saying that you can't point & shoot a rifle in less than 2 seconds, because you can find a random video on Youtube with someone who is not pointing & shooting a rifle in less than 2 seconds?
When doing patrol, the point man already loaded the grenade on the rifle, he just need to point the rifle, shoot, and the grenade is airborne.
From: EmericD
23/6/22
stancrist said:What I said is the video is an example of airburst fragmentation which makes me think the concept could possibly work.
The concept of firing bursts of high power 30 mm AC canon at targets is working, we already know that. It can even defeat tanks.
Thinking that an individual weapon could do something remotely similar is, well, wishful thinking.
stancrist said:The 30mm cannon airburst videos show fragmentation effect much better than, for example, 40mm grenade airbursts.
Do you mean that the 40 x 53 mm is not effective enough and that we need a more powerful grenade?
If so, what is the rationale behind advocating for an individual, man-portable, grenade launcher, that will definitively be less powerful than a 40 x 53 mm?
Or maybe you are thinking about using a fully dressed Mk47 (with tripod and FCS) as the squad main asset, while the rest of the squad is issued a MP7, a spare mag and as many grenades they could carry?
That would probably work, but wouldn't be a very american way to fight!
From: graylion
23/6/22
EmericD said:That would probably work, but wouldn't be a very american way to fight!
No? Lobbing HE at everything in sight strikes me as very American ;)
Something that surprises me a little is that nobody has proposed a 30x113 gas loaded, mechanically fired dismount gun with a tripod ;)
- Edited 23 June 2022 10:14 by graylion
From: taschoene
23/6/22
graylion said:Something that surprises me a little is that nobody has proposed a 30x113 gas loaded, mechanically fired dismount gun with a tripod ;)
It's been proposed. (But I suspect you knew that...)
From: Mr. T (MrT4)
23/6/22
Radar chronographs becoming smaller although magnetic field MV measurement muzzle device is probably still the most robust and cheap way to measure MV and possibly program Airburst ammo.
From: taschoene
23/6/22
Oh, then I'm glad to have shared.
There was also the Advanced Crew Served Weapon (aka the Objective Crew Served Weapon or OCSW), basically a belt-fed grenade machinegun for OICW-like bursting projectiles (25x59 instead of 25x45). It was supposed to bridge between the Mk19 and the M2. (Though it was also straight up convertible to fire 12.7x99)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM307_Advanced_Crew_Served_Weapon
From: stancrist
23/6/22
EmericD said:Are you really (and seriously) saying that you can't point & shoot a rifle in less than 2 seconds...
??? That is not even remotely close to what I said.
I'm saying that you can't load the grenade, aim with the needed precision at targets beyond point blank range and fire in anywhere near 2 seconds.
Under ideal conditions, it takes 6-8 seconds just to load the grenade and remove the safety clip. Under combat conditions, expect it to take longer.
EmericD said:When doing patrol, the point man already loaded the grenade on the rifle, he just need to point the rifle, shoot, and the grenade is airborne.
Right. How long will it take him to aim carefully enough to hit sufficiently close to a target that is 200-300 meters away?
And that's only one grenade. For the point man to load and fire another grenade, it will take a lot longer than 2 seconds.
The same time factors are true for the rest of riflemen in the patrol, since they won't have a rifle grenade already loaded.