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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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Future Infantry Heavy Weapons   Army Guns 20+mm

Started 29-Sep by stancrist; 5994 views.
stancrist

From: stancrist

11-Oct

schnuersi said:

While it is not exactly light its light enough to be carried in addition to the standard armament and the reloads can be distributed.

Reloads?  I thought the RGW is a single use, disposable weapon, like the AT4?

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

12-Oct

stancrist said:

Reloads? I thought the RGW is a single use, disposable weapon, like the AT4?

Not exactly.
As far as I know its like Panzefaust 3. The weapon is actually the firing mechanism with grips, shoulder stock and sight. The loaded tube is the munition. Only the tube is discarded. The firing unit or weapon is reused. Clipping on a new loaded tube is very simple and quick.
Reloads are additional loaded tubes.
At the very least depending on version the sight with FCS is detachable and reusable. So a "reload" would be the loaded tube, with firing mechanism. There might be versions that are intended to be discarded completly after use like AT4 or M72. The RGW system is quite flexible and can be tailored to customer demands rather easily.

stancrist

From: stancrist

12-Oct

schnuersi said:

As far as I know its like Panzefaust 3. The weapon is actually the firing mechanism with grips, shoulder stock and sight. The loaded tube is the munition. Only the tube is discarded. The firing unit or weapon is reused. Clipping on a new loaded tube is very simple and quick. Reloads are additional loaded tubes.

Thank you for that explanation.  It clears up a misconception I had about both RGW and PzF3.

Previously I had not read or seen anything about the RGW having a separable fire control unit.

I have never seen any photos or videos showing RGW loaded tubes without the FCU attached.

The RGW's FCU (with the simplest optic) looks rather crude and cheap, as if to be disposable.

All the videos said RGW is disposable.  Even DND said so.  https://youtu.be/U3jNPrk7CrI?t=55

As for Panzerfaust 3, I always thought it loaded like the RPG, with a rocket inserted in the front.

I never came across any video or photos of loaded launch tubes for PzF3 without attached FCU.

After reading your post, I did a lengthy search and finally found a photo of an unattached tube.

P.S.  Forgive me, but I can't resist the temptation to make a half joking response to your remark that the FCU is a weapon.  To paraphrase Crocodile Dundee:

This is not a reloadable weapon.

THIS is a reloadable weapon.  grin

  • Edited 12 October 2022 17:30  by  stancrist
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

12-Oct

Also I imagine if used in a Reload fashion (ie 1x firing unit, multiple spare rocket tubes), it would lose the main advantages over a M4 CG. 

The advantages of disposable AT are

-Weapon can be tossed after firing

-Anyone carrying the thing can fire it, allowing for salvo / distributed fire

-Individual weapon, not crew served

....

Given the weight of RGW90, but the modest size of the little 'launcher' stock, I assume the reload rockets are ~15lbs. So someone carrying a spare 'reload' could carry 2x CG shells for the same/less weight.

...

Im not sure if a 90mm would be powerful enough to be worth it over the CG. Whereas at least the Pzf3 is an insane, battleship kill RHA penetrator.

  • Edited 12 October 2022 19:25  by  gatnerd
stancrist

From: stancrist

12-Oct

gatnerd said:

The advantages of disposable AT are

-Weapon can be tossed after firing

Like this?  smile

In reply toRe: msg 65
Refleks

From: Refleks

12-Oct

While a big improvement over crude irons, we're at a point technologically where we can do even better than just reusable FCU for individual use disposable weapons.  I think we can start integrating guidance at a reasonable manufacturing cost now.  An IIR guidance section would probably run less than $6,000 at current prices, making it viable even on M72 sized platforms.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

12-Oct

Solid toss and transition to 40mm.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

12-Oct

Refleks said:

While a big improvement over crude irons, we're at a point technologically where we can do even better than just reusable FCU for individual use disposable weapons.  I think we can start integrating guidance at a reasonable manufacturing cost now.  An IIR guidance section would probably run less than $6,000 at current prices, making it viable even on M72 sized platforms

Guidance would be very cool.

The question is what it could be made for vs what it's likely to be made for.

NLAW, a sort of semi guided munition, is $40k. APKWS is $30k.

Basic unguided munitions are not sure duper cheap either. From google:

84mm CG shell: $500-$3000

AT4: $1500

RGW 90 (from recent ukraine contract): $7,327

PZF 3 w/ Computer IT-600 sight: $11k 

PZ4 3 reload tube: $300 (in 2010; estimate sounds low) 

--> I'd be shocked (but delighted) to see a guided AT weapon at $10k or less.

The other issue we see with Ukraine is the low speed of production for these guided munitions. Lockheed can make 2100 Javs a year now, with goals of making 4100.

I'm not sure what NAAMO or SAAB yearly production numbers are for M72/AT4/84mm CG rounds are, but I have to imagine they can be produced more rapidly / scaled up more quickly then a guided munition?

Overall I think guided is ideal, but for shear volume, or countries on a limited (non US) budget, the Smart Scope + Dumb Round is a good 80/20 solution for the bulk of their fires. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

13-Oct

schnuersi said:

As far as I know its like Panzefaust 3. The weapon is actually the firing mechanism with grips, shoulder stock and sight. The loaded tube is the munition. Only the tube is discarded.

Whats interesting is the GD Marketed version of the RGW-90/60 are advertised as fully disposable, with the firing unit non removable:

https://www.gd-ots.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/400000583-RGW90-RGW60-DND-GD-OTS-Brochure-2021.pdf

In reply toRe: msg 69
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

13-Oct

gatnerd said:

Whats interesting is the GD Marketed version of the RGW-90/60 are advertised as fully disposable, with the firing unit non removable:

Yes. Its pretty confusing. It looks very similar to PzFst 3 but apparently there are differences.
It seems that the firing unit is reloadable but not by the user. That means if it is delivered back it can be reloaded at the factory.
I also did not find any picture where there are loaded spare RGW barrels visible. At least not clearly.
The Wirkmittel 90 of the German army a RGW90 LRMP version is stated to be reloadable but this really could mean the FCU is reused and the tube discarded.
Versions of the RGW with the simple flip up sight and no FCS seem to be discardable.

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