Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by autogun

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

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Where next for PDWs?   Army Guns 20+mm

Started by autogun; 1235 views.

From: autogun


I have updated and considerably extended my article on Personal Defence Weapon ammunition, to include the choice of weapons as well. See:



From: autogun


A couple of minor mods to it, following debate elsewhere.



From: Luckyorwhat


Great article, reads like a book, you must spend a lot of time editing or you've got a good writing style.

From: autogun


Thank you. I edit as I go along, so it's almost in its final form by the time I've reached the end.


  • Edited 06/09/2007 10:19 ET by autogun

From: Shooter20000


That is a very informative article!

If I were to design a PDW and it's ammo, I would make the following ideas manditory!

1. The LOA of the ammo must not exceed 32MM and it should have the smallest head OD as is practicle for the energy required. The bolt face should opperate like the Para Ordinance PWR-X extractor system. It can use any cliber round with out change. But this requires some other locking method besides a rotary bolt.

2. The gun must feed threw the grip stock like a pistol. Too many advantages to list.

3. The BBL should be at least 8 and preferably 12" long and should have an intregal sound/muzzle blast supressor built in. This is not to make it silent, but to reduce the muzzle blast to ease soldier training and noise in confined spaces issues.

4. It should have a folding stock with an adjustable reach. Those with longer arms can have the muzzle farther away from their face. It's important because muzzle blast is one of the biggest detriments to training and shooting.

5. It should be gas operated. Blow back and recoil systems are just too hard to make shoot well! This last is a de-rigor requirement for civilian sales!

6. A rugged optical sight is a must and should be built in or on a rail to expidite change.

7. The maximum LOA should be under 400MM and the grip should be as far to the rear as possable to maximise BBL length. No more than 40MM from the back strap to the back of the reciever.

Just for starters; The .30 Carbine cartridge either as is loaded with a Sabot/.224" slug flush with the case mouth, A-la .38 wad cutters, or shortened to 25MM LOA, would meet the NATO standard for AP performance and fire larger caliber HP ammo for terminal effectiveness on soft targets. A pistol that resembles the Ruger Mk-III .22 Government model with a long semi-fat BBL and a folding stock with a C-More sight? The flush magasine would hold 20 rounds and the spair attached to the but stock under the leg would hold 30-40? You wear it in a holster like a conventional side arm.

I all ready have details in mind and if any of you would like to invest in a prototype for possable sales write me.

In reply toRe: msg 5

From: autogun


It appears that the 6.5mm CBJ project is alive and well:

Some questions/comments which I sent to the site owner:

Has any decision been made between brass and light alloy cartridge cases?
A key issue will be the effect on soft targets. The pictures of the size of the "wound channel" in soap blocks are most impressive, but I believe that they show the maximum extent of the temporary cavity created by penetration, whereas most experts believe that it is the size of the permanent cavity which matters most, after the flesh has "sprung back" from the initial shock. Ballistic gel is usually used to show wound channels, for this reason.
A second comment is that the performance of the ammunition is possible only because of the use of tungsten-alloy bullets, but the cost of tungsten has been increasing significantly of late, a trend likely to continue.
Thirdly, how does the armour penetration compare with steel and tungsten-cored AP bullets in 5.56mm and 7.62mm?
Finally, a comment on the gun design; I note that both open and closed-bolt firing can be provided. In my opinion, closed-bolt firing on semi-auto is likely to be preferred because of its greater single-shot accuracy, but a change to open-bolt firing in automatic (especially in the light support weapon role) might be better. It is sometimes possible to achieve this in MG designs by means of the fire selector switch, but I'm not sure if that would be possible in the CBJ due to its trigger-controlled fire selector.

From: blyle2


tungstun alloy are highly carcinognic

probably illegal

In reply toRe: msg 7

From: autogun


tungstun alloy are highly carcinognic

probably illegal

Hardly: it's been the standard penetrating material in all but the cheapest AP ammo since WW2. The main exception being DU, which is indeed carcinogenic if inhaled or ingested.



From: Shortround6


I don't know how similar the tungstun alloys from penetrators are to the alloys used in cutting tools but Pratt & Whitney used to regrind tugstun carbide cutting bits with diamond wheels with no special precautions back in the 1970's.

Of course they used a few other chemicals without precautions that they shouldn't have.

Asa Yam (asaatwork2)

From: Asa Yam (asaatwork2)


"Hardly: it's been the standard penetrating material in all but the cheapest AP ammo since WW2."


  The US Army did tests with tungsten/iron in 2003, and they found a possible link between this alloy and cancer.  See for a brief overview.