gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3260
    MEMBERS
  • 184882
    MESSAGES
  • 0
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

Textron Shows off New 6.5mm Case-Telesco   Small Arms <20mm

Started 28/9/16 by poliorcetes; 31643 views.
poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

28/9/16

http://kitup.military.com/2016/09/textron-shows-off-new-6-5mm-case-telescoped-carbine.html

 

 

POSTED BY: MATTHEW COX SEPTEMBER 27, 2016
Textron Systems unveiled its new 6.5mm case-telescoped carbine at Modern Day Marine 2016.

The weighted model represents Textron’s latest effort to develop a new age of infantry weapons that fire weight-saving, case-telescoped ammunition.

Textron has made significant advancements in this technology with its Light Weight Small Arms Technology, or LSAT – an Army funded program that has so far yielded working lightweight machine guns in both 5.56mm and 7.62mm.

The new 6.5 CS carbine emerged out of an intermediate caliber study Textron conducted in 2014, according to Ben Cole, project engineer.

Currently, the empty weight of the mock-up carbine is 8.7 pounds. A magazine loaded with 20 rounds of case-telescoped 6.5mm ammunition adds one pound. An M4A1 weighs 7.74 pounds empty and about 8.74 pounds with a loaded 30-round mag.

Case-telescoped ammunition is about 40-percent lighter when you compare it to the standard brass ammo in the same caliber, Cole said.

The 123 grain 6.5mm has a muzzle velocity of about 3,000 feet per second, Cole said.

Comparatively, the 62 grain bullet on the M855A1 has a muzzle velocity of 2,970 feet per second, according to U.S. Army data.

“If you take this 6.5mm bullet at our muzzle velocity, it’s 300 percent more down-range energy than the M855A1,” Cole said. “So for a minimal weight gain, you would have significantly more down-range lethality.”

Textron officials hope to have a working prototype to begin testing early next year, Cole said.

“We are trying to go after the next requirement for soldier rifles,” Cole said.

 

3000fps?

123gr?

 

I guess that Energy is going to be closer to 7.62x51 than to SCHV, right?

NathanielF

From: NathanielF

28/9/16

I hate being right sometimes.

autogun

From: autogun

28/9/16

Ouch. That might be a brilliant replacement for the 7.62 in terms of long-range ballistics, but it's way too powerful to be a satisfactory replacement for the 5.56mm. Effectively, it matches the .260 Rem.

I am suspicious of that 123 grain weight - looks to me as if they are still using lead-cored bullets, probably an SMK. That won't do for a standard infantry gun, so they'll almost certainly have to drop the weight in going lead-free. Then what - will they push the velocity even higher?

The current size of the 6.5 CT cartridge is the same as for the 7.62 version for comparison purposes, so there is scope to slim it down in order to moderate the performance somewhat. Will they do that? I don't know.

 

NathanielF

From: NathanielF

28/9/16

autogun said...

 

Ouch. That might be a brilliant replacement for the 7.62 in terms of long-range ballistics, but it's way too powerful to be a satisfactory replacement for the 5.56mm. Effectively, it matches the .260 Rem.

I am suspicious of that 123 grain weight - looks to me as if they are still using lead-cored bullets, probably an SMK. That won't do for a standard infantry gun, so they'll almost certainly have to drop the weight in going lead-free. Then what - will they push the velocity even higher?

The current size of the 6.5 CT cartridge is the same as for the 7.62 version for comparison purposes, so there is scope to slim it down in order to moderate the performance somewhat. Will they do that? I don't know.

 

I was arguing with somebody somewhere (might have been my comments section) about the performance of the CTSAS 6.5mm ammunition. They felt it would be closer to 7.62mm, I felt they would just thicken the hull walls a bit to make the performance match what they wanted. All things considered, and as I'll explain in an article to be published here in the next hour or two, I believe this fires the same CTSAS 6.5mm ammunition that has been shown off before. That means, it's been like this the whole time.

*sigh*

Well, Tony, believe me yet about the requirements creep? -_-

autogun

From: autogun

28/9/16

It seems to me that the current developments are biased towards obtaining the best possible ballistics - which will admittedly provide great long-range performance - at the expense of weight and controllability. 

I am concerned that if they go ahead with the 6.5 mm CT project in its present form, combat experience might raise an urgent need for something smaller and lighter to supplement it (which sounds familiar...). After all, the claimed ME is over 3,300 J - and that's presumably from a carbine barrel! The 264 USA is much less extreme at 2,600-2,700 J, but bearing in mind this is also from a carbine barrel (I wonder what it will generate from a 20-22" barrel?) it is more powerful than I think is desirable if it is to be a credible replacement for 5.56mm as well as 7.62mm.

 

poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

28/9/16

Nathaniel and Tony,

 

My quick and dirty calculation was that given 123gr and 3000fps, Energy was something like 3.600J

 

Am I right?

Watching the mock-up, it is clear that the Flash supressor is a direct descendent of our previous ones, without any meaningful improvement of recoil reduction. I cannot identify the space for a buffering device or for a true recoiling device. 

 

If there isn't any recoiling device, then such "carbine" is going to be as uncontrollable in full automatic as a FAL, CETME or M-14.

 

Sorry for being repetitive, but: How am I misunderstanding the data of the announcement?

Thanks

EmericD

From: EmericD

28/9/16

NathanielF said...

I hate being right sometimes.

It seems that someone read your comments about the controllability of the Sudanese AR-10... now they just need to change the flash hider with a decent muzzle break :-)

renatohm

From: renatohm

28/9/16

A weapon so powerful and light will be quite a lot harder to control than bigger/heavier ones like FAL.

Not to mention so much power from so short a barrel means the flash/bang will also be terrible.

OK, so now the DMR/IAR is ready, any news on the assault rifle?

In reply toRe: msg 8
poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

28/9/16

The more I think about it, the less I understand it. Of course its performance will be superior to .308, maybe even close in range to .300WM, but what's the point? A DMR-carabine?

No recoil-reducing implements? It looks even if they don't want to replace .223

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

28/9/16

I have to say that in so many ways this is a real disappointment, not unexpected but seriously disappointing!

I genuinely hope that this is a first pass effort.

TOP