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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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South Koreans work on 6.8 mm small arms   Small Arms <20mm

Started 11/2/20 by autogun; 3643 views.
Guardsman26

From: Guardsman26

8/3/20

Nothing official. It appears that the HK433 is not as liked as much as the HK416, which is already in service as the G29 with the KSK / KSM. 

There has been much discussion about whether Germany should re-adopt 7.62 mm more widely. There has also been talk of postponing a decision until it is clear what the US Army will do. 


They US Army will adopt two 6.8 mm loadings. In addition to the AP one there will also be a standard round with lower velocity and chamber pressure. If the SIG ammunition concept is chosen, then this would align with German needs. Anyway, nothing definite has been announced, but in the meantime the original timeline appears to have slipped. 
 

In the meantime, the British Army is very envious of way France brought HK416 into service. Hope you are well. 

poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

8/3/20

Can you comment if AP round is going to be more distributed that today's equivalents, or if it is going to use tungsten?

 
Guardsman26

From: Guardsman26

8/3/20

Sorry, I don't know the answer. But I can provide an opinion.  

With improved ceramic body armours becoming commonplace, it's likely that all loadings of NGSW 6.8 mm ammunition won't achieve overmatch for very long. If 6.8 mm is easily defeated, then NGSW ammunition becomes marginal if not pointless. We'll be carrying all this extra weight, putting-up with all that extra recoil, and still we won't have the lethality we want. This is unless the 6.8 mm can transmit sufficient blunt force trauma through the plate to incapacitate or kill the target. I don't know what amount of energy is required to do this, but am sure Emeric does! 

 

EmericD

From: EmericD

9/3/20

Thanks for that input.

The HK416 F program is running pretty smooth, with around 1,000 rifles delivered each month. I just need to buy ~10,000 suppressor kits and other small hardware (like polymer mags) to make the end user totally happy. Every rifle is delivered with one Aimpoint Comp M5 which is a pretty neat weapon sight.

I'm hoping to start preliminary work on the 5.56 mm "neckless" this year (as a way to improve NATO 5.56 x 45 mm, just like the SS-109 was a way to improve the M193), we will see if other EU countries are interested and if something could be done in the frame of the European Defense Agency.

Guardsman26

From: Guardsman26

9/3/20

You will obviously have seen the True Velocity neckless polymer cartridge for GD-OTS's 6.8 mm NGSW ammunition submission. It's an impressive design. I also hear good things about GD-OTS's chosen suppressor, the Delta P Design Brevis II. This is a 3D printed can with an innovative baffle arrangement.

I imagine you are following NGSW closely too. Do you have an opinion on the contenders?

autogun

From: autogun

9/3/20

EmericD said...

I'm hoping to start preliminary work on the 5.56 mm "neckless" this year (as a way to improve NATO 5.56 x 45 mm, just like the SS-109 was a way to improve the M193), we will see if other EU countries are interested and if something could be done in the frame of the European Defense Agency.

Very interesting Emeric - I look forward to hearing more in due course.

If that is successful will you then look at doing the same for 7.62x51, or would it be better to focus on a smaller calibre like 6.5 mm CM (but without the huge chamber pressures of NGSW)?

 

  • Edited 09 March 2020 7:44  by  autogun
EmericD

From: EmericD

9/3/20

Guardsman26 said...

You will obviously have seen the True Velocity neckless polymer cartridge for GD-OTS's 6.8 mm NGSW ammunition submission. It's an impressive design. I also hear good things about GD-OTS's chosen suppressor, the Delta P Design Brevis II. This is a 3D printed can with an innovative baffle arrangement.

I imagine you are following NGSW closely too. Do you have an opinion on the contenders?

The US are strictly controling the information about NGSW and my contacts at HK, FN Herstal or Beretta all remain silent (or don't know at all), so I'm limited to public informations, and educated guess...

For me, the starting point seems to be the "light rifle" program of the end 1940s. The original T93 AP round used a 136 gr (8,82 g) bullet at 2896 fps (883 m/s) which looks very close to the data published by SIG, for example, for their carbine with a 13'' barrel (135 grs and 2850 fps).

The reduction of the diameter from .30" to .27" will increase the BC, together with a better shape (every one now should know how to achieve a i7 form factor of 0.90 with a L/D=5 bullet), so "overmatch" will be achieved, for sure.

The weight of the original cartridge could be reduced with the use of polymer case (so GDOTS and Textron are in a better position than SIG, I think), and the recoil could be mitigated using a suppressor instead of a flash-hider, as rifle grenades are no longer a "nice to have".

So I think that both GDOTS and Textron have a better ammo concept, but if the Textron "sliding chamber" fails environment tests (you still have to seal that chamber) and if the GDOTS Bullpup is not deemed acceptable, then SIG offer could win.

Since the SIG ammo is nearly as heavy as brass-case 7,62 mm NATO (I think that Nathaniel F. estimates something like 22 g per round instead of 24-25 g per round for the 7.62 mm), the infantryman will revert to carry ~120 rds instead of 210+, I don't think that acceptance will be wide and the 5.56 mm will still have a reason to be used.

Textron ammo can't be used in currently designed weapons, and I don't think that a sliding chamber (or a revolver chamber) is a good solution for small-arms. Caseless ammo were found impractical because of chamber sealing failures (among other things), I fear that the problem will be the same with the Textron offering (I don't know how LSAT behaved during environmental testing).

So, finally, my vote would be the GDOTS offer with the .277 TVCM ammo, not really a surprise.

EmericD

From: EmericD

9/3/20

autogun said...

Very interesting Emeric - I look forward to hearing more in due course.

If that is successful will you then look at doing the same for 7.62x51, or would it be better to focus on a smaller calibre like 6.5 mm CM (but without the huge chamber pressures of NGSW)?

That's a good question.

A 7.62x43 mm Neckless could be done, but the standard 1-in-12'' barrel twist will limit bullet length & weight, so we need to check first that a ~17 g round launching a 131 gr lead-free bullet (C7 ~0.2) at a MV around 830 m/s from a 16'' barrel could have a military interest.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

9/3/20

I wouldn't be surprised if we end up using your 5.56 Neckless rather than 6.8 Bleedmoor.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

10/3/20

"I'm hoping to start preliminary work on the 5.56 mm "neckless" this year (as a way to improve NATO 5.56 x 45 mm, just like the SS-109 was a way to improve the M193), we will see if other EU countries are interested and if something could be done in the frame of the European Defense Agency."

That's great to hear. Would you be potentially partnering with TV for the case design, or pursuing your own variety of polymer case? I assume polymer; not sure how a brass / steel / aluminum could be made neckless? 

And what were you thinking in terms of projectile? Lead free? Steel AP? Cold formed brass solid? Would a neckless design allow enough COL to use a projectile like a .224 version of the Warner Flatline? 

 

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