autogun

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

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NDIA Small arms conference   Army Guns 20+mm

Started by blyle2; 1023 views.
In reply toRe: msg 26
autogun

From: autogun

18/6/08

I've just spent some time talking to people on the AAI stand at Eurosatory. They are very interested in developing an intermediate calibre version of the LSAT LMG (c. 6.5mm), and a carbine using the same ammo. If they can meet requirements, the caseless version will prevail (the ammo is much more compact as well as lighter), but if that meets insuperable problems then the plastic-cased telescoped version will be used (that's already been through a successful testing regime). Earliest in-service date is 2014.

 

H_Minus

From: H_Minus

18/6/08

Very good news Tony.  Did they happen to give you an objective bullet weight and muzzle velocity for the 6.5mm?  

EwingGreg

From: EwingGreg

18/6/08

I salute their interest but there is still a problem. 

 

 

Will there be an affordable civilian legal version?? :(

H_Minus

From: H_Minus

19/6/08

Will there be an affordable civilian legal version?? :(

Maybe one day, but for civilians, it really doesn't matter IMO.  Anything a civilian wants to do, he can easily achieve with brass cased ammo today.  Brass cased ammo is ideal for the home reloader and wildcatter.  Only a military would be able to fully appreciate the advantages that caseless ammunition brings IMO.  Chiefly among these are lightening the soldiers load and the ability to increase cyclic rate of fire in automatic fire.  A military could also realize an ammunition cost savings (eventually) that a civilian would probably never see.   

If you really must have a caseless rifle, here is one you can buy today in 6mm:

http://www.voere.com/model_vec91.htm

http://www.voere.com/ammunition_vec91.htm#Seitenbeginn


  • Edited 19/06/2008 12:02 ET by H_Minus
Shooter20000

From: Shooter20000

19/6/08

Back in the '80s, the firm of voere(SP?) sold two types of caseless ammo and no one bought it! As to the desirability of caseless ammo, for civilians it is a loose, loose, loose senario! Caseless ammo is harder to seal the breach in use. It does not cary heat out of the gun when the fired case is ejected and it is impossable to tailor the load to the gun! This is no small thing. The differance between any two guns can be as much as 10% in MV! Small differances in the type and amount of propellant can make huge differances in both MV and more importantly accuracy.

The idea that caseless ammo is good for the military is also a mixed bag! The only plus is the reduction in the weight that must be carried, transported and stored. All of the deffects above apply, plus the total lack of strength in the absence of the case limmets the rate of fire and causes the weapons to wear out faster. In addition, it reduses accuracy!

autogun

From: autogun

19/6/08

Very good news Tony.  Did they happen to give you an objective bullet weight and muzzle velocity for the 6.5mm?  

The guy didn't say so.  I doubt that they've got that far yet. I did (of course) encourage them to think in terms of a round with the ballistics to replace the 7.62x51 as well as the 5.56x45 ;-)

 

EwingGreg

From: EwingGreg

19/6/08

I agree that handloading and wildcatting can allow a civilian user to do most things.   However, the usual availability of low cost surplus military ammunition can be a serious attraction for many people. 

 

Then there are the fanboys who just HAVE to have whatever the pros are using.

Me, I am curious about the cartridge and weapon performance capabilities, mostly.

 

I remember when Voere brought their caseless gun out.   IIRC they stated it would be possible to load different bullets in the caseless propellant block.  I have no idea whether that ever developed, but I would think chamber pressure variations would be extreme.

 

 

H_Minus

From: H_Minus

20/6/08

However, the usual availability of low cost surplus military ammunition can be a serious attraction for many people. 

Well, IF the LSAT caseless LMG is adopted by the military around 2014 (earliest possible) then US military surplused caseless ammunition might hit the markets by around 2054 (if it's legal to sell to civilians by then). 

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for surplus caseless ammo. ;)

In reply toRe: msg 35
troglodyte2

From: troglodyte2

20/6/08

Spending squillions on some small arms break through so as to reduce the average soldiers load by the weight equiv to 500-600rds of mouse-gun brass seems a bit pointless? How much heavier will barrels and actions have to be engineered to soak up the abuse and heat that todays brass absorbs?
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