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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

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Exploring The Design Space   Ammunition <20mm

Started 25/7/15 by NathanielF; 99561 views.
QuintusO

From: QuintusO

2-Aug

autogun said:

A couple of thoughts: your 7 mm/T65 sounds rather a lot like the 7 x 49 FN offshoot of the 1950+ NATO trials which actually saw service in Venezuela, until they presumably decided that being the only country in the world to use it, wasn't very practical. (see page 22 of this for a group photo).

T65/7mm is actually a historical round itself. Yes it's somewhat similar to 7x49mm FN but a little more powerful. As you know, there were a large number of 7mm rounds during this time, including at least four basic case specs I'm aware of based on the various T65 family cases. Not to mention the commercial 7mm-08!

R1K1M

From: R1K1M

8-Aug

One advantage the heterogeneous squad has is that it takes some pressure of the weapons squad. So if you have an arms room sytsem implemented, the weapon squad may now carry HE throwers and AT weapons more often. Its also very resistant to casualties, at worst you simply fold into a two different french style 300&600m teams. However, it probably is slower than a homogeneous squad and I probably wouldt want to go in door busting with the weapons-fireteam. In a HIC against a near-peer it probably is a great layout.

R1K1M

From: R1K1M

8-Aug

Different topic: I was talking with idiot/Derpk-74 (M-100) over in the combined defense discord, and he claimed that nowadays you can design a 6mm cartridge with the same or better performance than 7.62 if you use modern high pressure technologies (poly case etc.pp.). He cited 6mm unified as an example how you could design it. However, that is fired from a 720mm barrel, which is a lot compared to the 550-650mm typical 7.62 MGs/Sniper Rifles have. When designing a modern replacement for the 7.62 round using NGSW technolgies, how would your favourite look like ? Can it really be done in 6mm without running into some weird issues ?

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

8-Aug

R1K1M said:

One advantage the heterogeneous squad has is that it takes some pressure of the weapons squad. So if you have an arms room sytsem implemented, the weapon squad may now carry HE throwers and AT weapons more often.

I get what you're saying but I don't really agree. Let's forget about the delineations of the platoon for a moment, and look at it holistically. So, in the current US Army platoon, you have two 7.62mm belt feds, which you need to be able to feed. It doesn't matter where you move those belt feds, the platoon has to carry them and all of the ammunition associated with them. As long as you have X number of belt feds and Y quantity of ammunition for them, you have to carry it. Doesn't matter if the guys carrying it are technically in the Weapons Squad or not. So that doesn't really free up any weight, in fact, it's a bit of a bait-and-switch, we're "removing" the MGs from the Weapons Squad, which sounds a lot like when you say you're going to remove a weapon from the platoon and move it up to company level, but is in fact the exact opposite. You're moving them DOWN, and you're not reducing the number carried in the TO&E at all.

There's been some argument that "oh, well if you replace the M249s with M240s or whatever that will reduce the number of belt feds and save that weight to then be used for high explosive weapons". OK, fine, but at that point you're not reducing weight, you're sort of shuffling it around. And while I support adding explosives to the platoon, the big thing that needs addressing first is the load. Another thing to consider under this scheme is that you're taking the Automatic Rifleman's (who is now perhaps better called a Machine Gunner) load up by 20 pounds or so. You're also increasing the load of the rest of the squad members (who have to carry his ammo). This reduces the mobility of the entire squad, and it also means you'll be cycling through ARs much faster as they already have one of the highest rates of injury of any member of the platoon.

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

8-Aug

R1K1M said:

Different topic: I was talking with idiot/Derpk-74 (M-100) over in the combined defense discord, and he claimed that nowadays you can design a 6mm cartridge with the same or better performance than 7.62 if you use modern high pressure technologies (poly case etc.pp.). He cited 6mm unified as an example how you could design it. However, that is fired from a 720mm barrel, which is a lot compared to the 550-650mm typical 7.62 MGs/Sniper Rifles have. When designing a modern replacement for the 7.62 round using NGSW technolgies, how would your favourite look like ? Can it really be done in 6mm without running into some weird issues ?

Depends what you mean by "7.62 performance". If, for example, what you mean is just drop and drift and energy at 1km, then you could have done this with a 6mm round in 1920.

If you check this thread you can see many of the 7.62 replacements I've worked on. Exactly what form that should take depends entirely on what combination of roles you expect it to fill.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

8-Aug

Obviously, we want a 1500 meter DMR/GPMG cartridge that also works for room clearing. Out of a 10.5 barrel. That doesn't need a suppressor to be hearing safe. Needs to penetrate Level IV+ plates at a minimum of 600 meters obviously. Oh, and can be produced cheaper than M855A1 would really, really be nice. While fitting in an M4A1.

Sound about right?;-)

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

8-Aug

Picatinny: You're hired!

alexsoddy

From: alexsoddy

9-Aug

Could you please provide other specifications for the 0.237 Antidote like case length , overall length, case taper, shoulder angle, rim thickness etc. ?

It is very attractive as a general purpose round due to its case taper.

Gripen287

From: Gripen287

9-Aug

Case length is 1.85", COAL is 2.8", case taper is .5 degrees, shoulder angle is 25 degrees, and rim thickness is 0.06". 

Other relevant information can be found here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1b_85r_UF061OVW-E4OfzRm-Eg0YexDye?usp=sharing

and here, including info for the Mk2 design:

 http://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/topic/1883-mini-competition-sioux-scout-rifle-caliber/

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