gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3360
    MEMBERS
  • 191212
    MESSAGES
  • 3
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 553142 views.
stancrist

From: stancrist

15/8/21

roguetechie said:

We can see that even though the US already has mk47's fancy sights and all they still for some reason want basically xm25 2.0.

The justifications listed pretty much talk about the fight from 1000 meters inward.

On paper the mk47 should already cover 1000 meters inward right?

Then why do they still want yet another thing that appears to cover only a small fraction of what mk47 covers?

Because (as I said in my response to your original post) the Mk47 is much too heavy and bulky for the purpose. 

They want a weapon that, like the XM25, can be carried and operated by one man.  That fact is clearly stated in the RFI:

-------------------------------------------------------

The PGS is envisioned to be a man portable integrated weapon system that enables precision engagements to destroy personnel targets in defilade and in the open with increased lethality and precision compared to the legacy M203/M320 grenade launchers.

  1. Maximum overall system length not to exceed 34 inches.
  2. System weight not to exceed 14.5lbs.

SAM.gov

-----------------------------------------------

EmericD

From: EmericD

16/8/21

roguetechie said:

The entire grenade launcher example was deliberately meant to be as absurd and exaggerated as possible while still illustrating why time of flight matters. This is what we've been arguing about right?

I don't know if "arguing" is the right word.

A US designed HEDP 40 x 53 mm grenade needs 6.49 sec to reach 1000 m. What is the ToF of the 25 x 40 mm at this same distance? Even using the better FF of the 25 x 59 mm, I can't do better than 6.55 sec.

  • Edited 16 August 2021 3:13  by  EmericD
stancrist

From: stancrist

16/8/21

FYI -- This is the only statement in the RFI about time of flight:

After trigger pull, time of flight to target no greater than 3 seconds to 500 meters.

SAM.gov

DavidPawley

From: DavidPawley

16/8/21

Epic troll

Sten556 said:

Trying to steal the limelight of the superior caliber by taking its name is the sort of underhanded tactic the Grendel cabal used to kill off the competition.

Well played.

stancrist

From: stancrist

16/8/21

roguetechie said:

Again I'll point out that In my initial post I deliberately said Im going to use this as an absurd example that illustrates my point wrt time of flight...

Baloney.  You said no such thing.

Here is what you actually wrote:

"We see this issue much more acutely with grenade launchers whether they are LV or HV so I'm going to use them as an example.

The US military right now is looking to buy something like the xm25 again because they need an HE flinger to service urgent targets up to 1000 meters. So why would they be looking for something with a much shorter time of flight and higher velocity even at the cost of drastically reduced explosive payload and blast radius when they have the fancy striker AGL with very advanced grenade sights which can reach out to way past 1000 meters Tony?"

https://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages?msg=7519.1248

EmericD

From: EmericD

16/8/21

stancrist said:

FYI -- This is the only statement in the RFI about time of flight: After trigger pull, time of flight to target no greater than 3 seconds to 500 meters.

The ToF of the US 40 x 53 mm HEDP is 2.78 sec at this range (500 m).

DavidPawley

From: DavidPawley

16/8/21

roguetechie said:

between a 22 and 24 inch barrel that does oh let's say no more than 2600 fps and is let's just call it between 270 and 280 caliber.

Ha. Sten556 is your sock puppet! I see it all now.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

16/8/21

I wish I was that talented.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

16/8/21

Yes, it turns out both trajectory and time of flight are important. 

If you can't hit what you're aiming at (and even 40x53 needs you to direct hit if you're trying to bust things like VBIED's) your shots are essentially wasted.

But again, none of this was actually ABOUT the whole 40x53 versus xm25 thing... (That's an interesting topic on it's own though especially since the Chinese have done some interesting work in this area)

I love that rather than understand that an example is an example this forum's rather predictable response is to uselessly chase Their tails beating the example to death rather than Actually address the real issue I was bringing up.

Well played sirs, you have once again fended off someone's best attempts to have a useful and productive conversation.

I trust you are proud of yourselves.

stancrist

From: stancrist

16/8/21

roguetechie said:

Yes, it turns out both trajectory and time of flight are important. 

???  Since I said nothing like that, your statement makes no sense as a response to my post.

roguetechie said:

If you can't hit what you're aiming at (and even 40x53 needs you to direct hit if you're trying to bust things like VBIED's) your shots are essentially wasted.

That's true of pretty much any infantry weapon.

roguetechie said:

But again, none of this was actually ABOUT the whole 40x53 versus xm25 thing...

Then you should not have brought it up.

roguetechie said:

I love that rather than understand that an example is an example this forum's rather predictable response is to uselessly chase Their tails beating the example to death rather than Actually address the real issue I was bringing up.

Your example was meant to substantiate your claim that "time of flight always matters" by making another claim that the reason for the Army's Precision Grenadier system is to get a shorter time of flight than the Mk47 gives.

I proved that you are wrong.  https://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages?msg=7519.1328

                                                     https://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages?msg=7519.1330

TIME OF FLIGHT DOES NOT ALWAYS MATTER.

  • Edited 16 August 2021 16:04  by  stancrist
TOP