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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 520666 views.
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

17/8/21

" NGSW-FC Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPrIN0Gie-U "

Great find Stan. That video does shine some light on the new optic thats been missing. 

Highlights:

- NGSW-FC optic is 2.5lbs

-FC is 1-6x scope; thing on the top that looks like a backup red dot is actually the laser range finder and other sensors 

-Optic includes both drop compensation and also some element of wind detection as well as rifle cant and position, and may also be able to provide a compass heading of where the rifle is aimed for directing fire 

- Officially rated for use out to 900m (may actually be further.)

-Can work with the new 1.5lb clip on Night Vision/Thermal optic and provide night time hits out to 700m 

Overall its an impressive capability. However the high weight of the optic, combined with the 7.62+ sized battle rifle its mounted upon, is really going to be a pig. 

Using SIG since they have the most published specs:

SIG Spear: 8.1lbs

SIG SRD762 Suppressor: 1.063lbs

NGSW-FC: 2.5lbs

20rd 7.62 PMAG w/ 22g assumed cartridge: 1.31lbs

Total: 12.97lbs 

This assumes that there will not be an additional IR laser illuminator or any other accessories on the rifle. 

For perspective, a M4A1 + ACOG + M203 grenade launcher + IR laser + loaded 30rd mag = 11.6lbs. This is not to say that this a better choice, but just to give a sense of how heavy a 12.97lb NGSW is - its heavier then a tricked out M4 w/ grenade launcher.

  • Edited 17 August 2021 2:19  by  gatnerd
Red7272

From: Red7272

17/8/21

stancrist said:

First, if the "couple guys" are running away, that's a pretty good indication they very much want to go on living.    If they "don't particularly care if they die", they would stay and fight. Second, it is nearly impossible to hit one or two running individuals by lobbing "a couple rounds" at them from a mortar, due to the extremely high trajectory and long time of flight.

That you don't understand insurgent tactics I find unsurprising. As for the practicality of hitting them with mortar fire there are a few billion mortar rounds and a hundred years of war that would disagree with you. 

stancrist

From: stancrist

17/8/21

gatnerd said:

HE System + HE rounds = ditching 1x rifle and fireteam carried spare ammo for SAW.

Asymmetric HE Squad

HE fireteam:

SAW gunner w/ 400-800rds

HE gunner with 10-16lb HE system, small 3-5lb PDW, HE ammo 

2x Rifleman w/ 7x mags + spare HE ammo

Concur with ditching one rifle per squad.

Non-concur with the other items above.

AFAIK, the grenadier -- whether armed with the M203, M320, XM25, or M32 -- is the only squad member who carries ammo for his weapon.  That means the two riflemen in the HE team could still carry spare ammo for the SAW.

Also, the US Army and USMC do not currently field a PDW, nor have I heard of any published plan to adopt one.  The available video and photos of XM25 grenadiers in Afghanistan show them to have no secondary weapon. 

101st Soldiers fielding XM-25, in AFG 2011 - YouTube

At best, the grenadier with a 15-lb weapon might carry a service pistol, like the Marine below appears to have.

  • Edited 17 August 2021 11:46  by  stancrist
stancrist

From: stancrist

17/8/21

Red7272 said:

That you don't understand insurgent tactics I find unsurprising.

LOL.  You mean like the tactic of shoot, then run away, in order to stay alive?

Red7272 said:

As for the practicality of hitting them with mortar fire there are a few billion mortar rounds and a hundred years of war that would disagree with you.

ROFL.  In all that 100 years, can you cite even one documented instance of a mortarman targeting one specific enemy combatant, firing only TWO rounds and intentionally hitting him while he was running?

The first 10 seconds of the following video shows a 60mm mortar being fired at a stationary target, and the time of flight is a whopping 8 seconds.  Good luck hitting a running man with only two shots.

https://youtu.be/yi1SkYzCql8

  • Edited 17 August 2021 11:44  by  stancrist
roguetechie

From: roguetechie

17/8/21

Oh man 8 seconds is brutal. Even with a pretty large blast radius If you're trying to hit a maneuvering individual it group you've somehow got to predict about where you think he'll be in 8 second not where he is.

People can move quite a ways in that time.

stancrist

From: stancrist

17/8/21

Yeah, sometimes time of flight matters very much.  relaxed

smg762

From: smg762

17/8/21

How does the unloaded ngsw weight compare to a M27....do all m27 have heavy barrel.  Strikes me that a 20rnd stripper clip would save weight...308 mags weigh a ton

And surely a 13. Barrel wouldnt be very pointable or intuitive for 600m

  • Edited 17 August 2021 13:57  by  smg762
stancrist

From: stancrist

17/8/21

smg762 said:

 Strikes me that a 20rnd stripper clip would save weight...

First, I doubt that 20-rd stripper clips are feasible.  The biggest I've seen for NGSW-size cartridges is 10-rd.

Second, if your idea is to get rid of magazines and modify NGSW rifles for top loading, stripper clips are not the way to go.

A much better option is the en bloc clip, like that used to load the M1 Garand.

But, en bloc or stripper, 10-rd or 20-rd, it does not matter.  There is not a snowball's chance in Hell that the military would ditch magazines and return to clip loading.

  • Edited 17 August 2021 16:51  by  stancrist
Red7272

From: Red7272

17/8/21

stancrist said:

ROFL.  In all that 100 years, can you cite even one documented instance of a mortarman targeting one specific enemy combatant, firing only TWO rounds and intentionally hitting him while he was running?

You do know mortar bombs detonate so you don't actually have to hit them with it?  And are we talking Olympic sprinters or something because 8 seconds is not a long time over a non running track carrying various things for your average person. And lets not ignore them lethal radius of the 81 mm mortar bomb being 30ish metres. So our mythical runner might have gone 50 metres and that is also the blast radius of the bomb. 

stancrist

From: stancrist

18/8/21

Red7272 said:

You do know mortar bombs detonate so you don't actually have to hit them with it? 

Wait, what?  Are you saying that mortar rounds are explosive???  Gosh, and here I've been thinking they are solid projectiles, like big bullets with fins.

Red7272 said:

And are we talking Olympic sprinters or something because 8 seconds is not a long time over a non running track carrying various things for your average person.

True, but in case you didn't notice, that 8 seconds was for a mortar firing at rather short range.  As range increases, so will time of flight.  Here's an instance where ToF is nearly double (14 seconds):  https://youtu.be/TfzyFvZzIH0?t=45

Red7272 said:

And lets not ignore them lethal radius of the 81 mm mortar bomb being 30ish metres. So our mythical runner might have gone 50 metres and that is also the blast radius of the bomb.

81mm mortars, you say?

Apparently you know little about 81mm mortar operation.

Unless we're talking about an 81mm mortar in a fixed position on a firebase, you first have to assemble the barrel, bipod, and baseplate before you can even think about shooting at that insurgent who took a few potshots at you.  That process will take you well over a minute.  https://youtu.be/Rcz5unaXwvQ?t=127  2:07-3:17

Then there's the  matter of aiming.  You can't aim an 81mm mortar like a rifle or grenade launcher.  It's much more complex, and involves more than one man.  Add another minute to your engagement time:  https://youtu.be/cLtgggPulu8?t=29  0:29-1:29

By the time you finally get to fire, the insurgent will be relaxing at home...  sunglasses

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