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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 477673 views.
roguetechie

From: roguetechie

21/9/21

Yeah no I'm not talking about them dying to early super hot m855a1 and suboptimal magazine followers. I'm talking about them beating themselves to death with current production m855a1 which has had the peak pressures backed off from Early batches.

As far as "unproven allegations" go, HK can't cheat physics and physics plus the inviolable nature of Technical Data packages which are practically carved in stone by the finger of god himself as far as your hopes of changing them is the problem here.

Hiding behind the whole HK will lawfare anyone who dares publicly give anything but a glowing review to their shit doesn't change the fact that the HK 416 is going to have unacceptably high breakage rates with ANY newer than 2008 american ammo for a very specific reason. It's not even hk's fault totally, m855a1 etc isn't what the gun was optimized to shoot at the time of the contract win.

I hate that people try to hide behind HK being extremely poor sports about any criticism ESPECIALLY if it's justified!

We should be holding our defense industrial base to a higher standard rather than accepting mediocrity as our lot in life.

Edit to add: and no m4's don't have the same trouble with the ammo types (PLURAL) the 416 does, nor would you expect them to since the two guns do not have the same operating system.

Muh nuh uh is my second least favorite argument when it comes to anything having to do with HK.

Finally, the m4 and m4a1 also suffer from the whole inviolate tdp situation AND the whole the Marines kill every PIP/M4A2 initiative in the crib so they don't have to explain to congress why they're paying 4x as much per gun as the army or etc is now paying when the army gun is both better and cheaper. But even with that millstone around it's neck fact is m4a1's Don't have anywhere near the HK breakage rates with the same ammo.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

21/9/21

My take on DM151 vs Lapua AP485 that buffman tested is that Chinese armor is above the minimum level 4 threshold and DM151 would not be succeesfull against  it as well.

But AP485 is relatively oldfashioned AP with relatively large caliber penetrator

Older nato AP seemed to focus on penetrating steel plate , and particulary some NATO 3.5mm steel target , prior to rise of jihadi mobile with improvised armor what were these mild steel targets supposed to represent?2 sheets of 50's car body panel?

AP485

EmericD

From: EmericD

21/9/21

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

But AP485 is relatively oldfashioned AP with relatively large caliber penetrator

AP485 seems to use a tungsten (metal) core, DM151 is using tungsten carbide core, that could make a huge difference against ceramic...

smg762

From: smg762

21/9/21

Google '6.8CT' and theres a pic of black CT ammo which is clearly only 50mm long. And it says 762..

With a slight length reduction you could easily manage a 6mm CT for P90 mags, and with 40 rounds. 

Also the shrike by ares seems a good IAR...mags AND belt feed

EmericD

From: EmericD

21/9/21

smg762 said:

Google '6.8CT' and theres a pic of black CT ammo which is clearly only 50mm long. And it says 762..

The initial 6.5 mm and 7.62 mm ammo were 2" long by 1/2" in diameter, the current 6.8 mm is closer to 12 mm in diameter (7.62 mm case head), and longer.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

21/9/21

EmericD said:

AP485 seems to use a tungsten (metal) core, DM151 is using tungsten carbide core, that could make a huge difference against ceramic

From what little I can find online (Nammo amunition handbook, some forum discussion) AP485 uses a Tungsten Carbide core. 

I was also under the general impression that pretty much all 'Tungsten' products, whether they be bullet cores or wedding rings or Rado watches or drill bits, were made out of Tungsten Carbide? WC being both harder and easier to sinter into parts then pure tungsten. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

21/9/21

smg762 said:

If CT ammo is short enoufhh to fit in a P90 style mag, it would make a great IAR....each guy could have 40 round mags. 

I think the best IAR ammunition style is SIG's, because high pressure thinwall metal cases allow for making very narrow cartridges. Which in turn would allow maximizing ammunition capacity.

Ideally, I'd love to see SIG's cases leveraged to produce a KEC 5.56 High Efficiency Cartridge , but using a more modern VLD projectile. You could have 50-60rd magazines about the length of a standard 30rd 5.56 magazine, while also being appreciably narrower, making them less bulky when mounted on a chest rig.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:daKWoDnntFwJ:https://media.8kun.top/file_dl/d60e37c02cf77f03b6a279add542ef0b758a251d782461fc6b974fa4e21b1481.pdf+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

The big question is whether 80kpsi of the SIG case design is enough pressure to make this little 5.56 straightwall replicate 5.56x45 velocity?

But if it were, a IAR using 50-60rd magazines of the 5.56 KEC would really be a fantastic Universal Infantry Weapon, creating a wonderful hybrid between a assault rifle and LMG. 

EmericD

From: EmericD

21/9/21

gatnerd said:

From what little I can find online (Nammo amunition handbook, some forum discussion) AP485 uses a Tungsten Carbide core. 

But from Buffman video, the bullet seems highly magnetic, and tungsten carbide is not magnetic at all.

gatnerd said:

I was also under the general impression that pretty much all 'Tungsten' products, whether they be bullet cores or wedding rings or Rado watches or drill bits, were made out of Tungsten Carbide?

It's more complicated... for example, the 7.62 mm SLAP is using a WC core (1400 Hardness Vickers), while the 12.7 mm SLAP is using a sintered W core (450 HV)...

stancrist

From: stancrist

21/9/21

smg762 said:

Google '6.8CT' and theres a pic of black CT ammo which is clearly only 50mm long. And it says 762..

You asked about 6.8 CT, not 7.62 CT.  And 6.8 CT is clearly much longer than 50mm.

smg762 said:

With a slight length reduction you could easily manage a 6mm CT for P90 mags, and with 40 rounds.

6 CT case size would depend upon what bullet weight and muzzle velocity you want.

A 95gr or heavier 6mm EPR bullet would be longer than the 7.62 M80 ball projectile.

Below, 6mm lead-core 95gr VLD

As a result, a 6 CT cartridge would probably be at least 50mm long.

It could be smaller diameter, though.  I'd estimate ~0.44" diameter.

Which makes a 40-rd mag be about the same length as a P90 mag.

However, you would still have the other issues that I noted before.

Mag changes in the prone position look difficult, if not impossible.

Minimal rail limits optics that can be used.  No NVS or NGSW FCS.

And then there's the matter of loading P90-type magazines. 

What a pain in the arse.  Soldiers would curse you forever!

https://youtu.be/4Ttmu-AWudE?t=15

Compare that to this:  https://youtu.be/9dujUDYn-18?t=5

  • Edited 21 September 2021 16:08  by  stancrist
stancrist

From: stancrist

21/9/21

Reliability of feeding, chambering, extraction with such an extreme L:D, and zero case taper?

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