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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 522749 views.
smg762

From: smg762

2/11/21

210rnds sounds like a lot of weight.... im guessing the rounds are 17grams and the gun is nearly 4kg?

Another drawback of big rounds is the weight of magazines.

Not to mention sigs heavier steel ammo....presumably its as heavy as 762nato

  • Edited 02 November 2021 9:11  by  smg762
roguetechie

From: roguetechie

2/11/21

Sig's case is based off a larger CASE than 7.62 NATO Stan. It's the entire premise behind them claiming 20% weight savings over an "equivalent brass cased round" when their loaded cartridge weight isn't anywhere near 20% less than a loaded round of m80a1.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

2/11/21

There's some questions as to just how high you could or would want to push TV neckless pressure wise (it would likely fail at 100k psi but should run at 80k maybe even 85) but yes they can run much higher pressures than they're currently running without a problem.

I personally think they may have only ran their backwards compatible stuff up to 65k because anything more than that is going to do bad things to 417's sr25's and mk48's. The 240 OTOH ... you could push the pressures much higher than 65k and not get anywhere near the danger zone for it's locking system which should be good for almost 100k at reduced service life.

I think TV and GD made a bad bet in a bid to be backwards compatible when they should have put together something that really showed everything the TV case was capable of.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

2/11/21

So the ngsw program goals that we are aware of stated that they were looking for a combat load of 210 rounds. Where sig's ammo doesn't save much if anything, and may in fact be heavier per round than m80a1, this is in theory a pretty big problem.

Where we get into issues though is that we don't know if that's still a stated program goal/requirement since things could have changed here too like they did with the 600 meter level 4 penetration program goal.

The issue we run into is we don't know what, if anything, from the original requirements might have been altered or etc.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

2/11/21

Right lol!

That looks like a carriage nightmare.

Gr1ff1th

From: Gr1ff1th

2/11/21

I swear the stated goal of 210 rounds was literally just because that's what it is now, zero thought on how the increased weight and bulk will actually affect that goal

Gr1ff1th

From: Gr1ff1th

2/11/21

SIG's cartridge weight is likely 23~ grams (Based off SIG saying it's 20% lighter than 270WSM), and Textron's is likely 15-17 grams (based off a 33% savings over 7.62 NATO), Overall the SIG ammo is likely 30-38% heavier than Textron's

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

2/11/21

I tend to agree. Also, none of the mags themselves we've seen look particularly light.

The really sad thing is that the ngsw project kinda painted itself into a corner by setting requirements that are frankly at odds with the government furnished projectiles they insist on using.

You CAN give them all their important requirements , just not with these projectiles which lock you into trying to make the most powerful service rifle round on earth and get it to fit into something you want to run like an assault rifle.

nincomp

From: nincomp

2/11/21

roguetechie said:

I think TV and GD made a bad bet in a bid to be backwards compatible when they should have put together something that really showed everything the TV case was capable of.

I agree.  It almost looks like they bet against the high velocity part of NGSW and went all out on ammo weight reduction for retrofitted weapons.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

2/11/21

Honestly it irritates me that GD and TV took such a risky "lowest common denominator" approach.

I get what they did and why but it just irks me because they have by far my favorite ammunition concept which totally could compete neck to neck with sig on equal footing and slaughter it.

But instead they bet on the DOD's penchant for mediocrity and penny wise pound foolishness.

One thing people shouldn't leave out of their considerations though is that the TV GD solution as it stands now is still generating a velocity lead over sig.

Not a terribly small one either.

I dunno man I'm kinda just frustrated with this entire competition, the contractors, and whoever it was wgo caved on the idiotic insistence that a 6.5-6.8mm projectile be used.

That single decision, along with the Marines and army being utterly uninterested when kori said hey we can give you pure fleet slam and go belt boxes back in LSAT days, just screwed the program from the jump.

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