gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 477405 views.
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

20-Jan

roguetechie said:

They're getting a full 3350 objective in the rifle version while still retaining backwards compatibility with m240.

3350fps with a 135gr? That would be pretty stupendous. 

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

20-Jan

I think by now all involved know NGSW project is going no where in regards to adoption by the military. But if put on the market and actually getting some traction , the US army might circle back with a new project that recycles bunch of off shelf offerings . That is a trend when it comes to US military development projects.

stancrist

From: stancrist

20-Jan

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

I think by now all involved know NGSW project is going no where in regards to adoption by the military. 

Hmm.  If NGSW adoption is going nowhere, how do you explain why the Army recently awarded Winchester a $20 million contract regarding NGSW ammo production at Lake City?

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

But if put on the market and actually getting some traction , the US army might circle back with a new project that recycles bunch of off shelf offerings . That is a trend when it comes to US military development projects.

Is it?  Can you cite any examples of US Army small arms programs that resulted in no winner, but one or more of the candidate weapons were later adopted as off-the-shelf items?

  • Edited 21 January 2022 1:26  by  stancrist
EmericD

From: EmericD

21-Jan

stancrist said:

Is it?  Can you cite any examples of US Army small arms programs that resulted in no winner, but one or more of the candidate weapons were later adopted as off-the-shelf items?

Maybe the M203 from the SPIW program, and the ACOG from the ACR program?

But I agree that SIG and TV announcement to release both weapons & ammo on the public market is a kind of "world-first".

We had to wait until the release of the ACR report to find that if HK G11 and Steyr ACR were never pushed to any other military market, it was because the root concept for both gun was not sound.

stancrist

From: stancrist

21-Jan

EmericD said:

Maybe the M203 from the SPIW program, and the ACOG from the ACR program?

Sure, there have been instances of bits and pieces from cancelled small arms programs being adopted later, but I'd hardly call it a "trend."

And I don't know of any cases where the rifles or machine guns from programs like SPIW, 6mm SAW, or XM8 Carbine were later adopted.

  • Edited 21 January 2022 13:09  by  stancrist
poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

21-Jan

The non-fixed chamber in both guns was also not sound or just the cartridges?

Would G11 have been adopted by Germany if the reunification had not taken place or was it a myth?

stancrist

From: stancrist

21-Jan

Myth or fact, Germans are probably lucky the G11 did not get adopted.  How would soldiers have carried spare magazines -- in a quiver on their back?  smile 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

22-Jan

The ACR report had pretty abysmal accuracy for the G11 and Steyr ACR, so I doubt it. The G11 also had other issues, such as the receiver filling with flammable gas as a byproduct of its ceaseless propellant and sealed action.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

22-Jan

Yeah those mags are like 15-17”long so would have been a big hassle.

EmericD

From: EmericD

22-Jan

poliorcetes said:

The non-fixed chamber in both guns was also not sound or just the cartridges?

For me, the whole concept behind the G11 was a failure.

- A caseless ammo so you can carry more rounds for the same weight (remember the nice graph showing a G11 with 510 cartridges versus a M16 with 240 rounds?). The "reality check" shows that due to the magazine geometry, a soldier was unable to carry more rounds of 4.7 mm caseless than conventional cased ammo. The rifle was supposed to be carried with 3 magazines on the top of the rifle (all the weight was on the rifle), one inserted, and 2 waiting to be fired, so that's 3x45 = 135 rounds available. The soldier could reload his 3 magazines with stripper clips of 15 rounds, but that's not a very practical option on the battlefield. Needless to say, the "low to very low" cook-off limit of the caseless round would have made the "battle of Wanat" a common occurrence.

- A free recoiling barrel assembly so you could fire 3 rounds at very high rpm with great accuracy and increased hit probability. Again, the "reality check" showed that even at 2200 rpm on a free recoiling assembly, the shot-to-shot dispersion was too high to increase hit probability, best results were achieved using semi-auto fire.

- Simple care and maintenance. Yes it was, because the mechanism was so complex that soldiers were not allowed to clean anything inside. A failure to feed resulting in a broken round inside the gun? No problems, simply return the rifle to the armorer and he will clean the gun...

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