gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 557581 views.
nincomp

From: nincomp

20/4/22

gatnerd said:

Which is all the more absurd given we've seen: -Russia is not a conventional peer / near peer threat -Most of their troops lack body armor; nearly all lack night vision and weapon optics  -The most important man portable infantry weapons have proven to be ATGMS/AT's/MANPADS, not small arms  -The Russians engaged with small arms seem to be getting yeeted just fine with 5.45 7n6 If anything watching whats happened in Ukraine would make the whole armor killing / long range premise of NGSW seem much less important.

I think that it is unreasonable to believe that the US will not be soon running into at least some foes who are able to wear the kind of protection that it has been using for a couple decades.  The price of effective body armor is falling every day and the current events are pointing out WHY it is worth getting.  As slowly as the US Military works, it is important to at least have something available to deal with even small groups of well armored adversaries.  The US may even learn something and (reasonably) quickly develop a better alternative.* 

We do not yet know how many soldiers on both sides have been killed or wounded with small arms, but if a significant number have been "yeeted" by 5.45 as you imply,  it means that small arms are indeed still important.  The long range premise of NGSW allows infantry to kill those with ATGMs etc from farther away and also to have some way to deal with opposing machine guns.   If anything, current events reinforce why accurate long-range weapons are useful.  It allow you to stay out of the effective range of opponents carrying 7.62x39 and 5.45x39.

Does anyone know if the old 7n6 is in fact what both sides are using?  Versions of 5.45 that are more effective against body armor have been around for decades now. 

*A hopelessly optimistic aspiration I know, but at least some of our allies might make use of the experience.

stancrist

From: stancrist

20/4/22

gatnerd said:

Russia is not a conventional peer / near peer threat

US military leadership seem to think otherwise.

gatnerd said:

The most important man portable infantry weapons have proven to be ATGMS/AT's/MANPADS, not small arms 

That's a specious argument.  Of course ATGMs are more important than small arms for engaging AFVs.  Ditto for MANPADs versus aircraft.

gatnerd said:

The Russians engaged with small arms seem to be getting yeeted just fine with 5.45 7n6

I don't know what "getting yeeted" means, but assuming from the context that it means getting shot, I think one would need a lot more info in order to draw a conclusion.

gatnerd said:

Most of their troops lack body armor

It would be unwise to count on that being true in a NATO versus Russia conflict.  Prudent military leaders typically consider "worst case" scenarios when planning.

stancrist

From: stancrist

20/4/22

poliorcetes said:

But again, as Gatnerd said, either there is any undisclosed problem with TV technology, or simply it doesn't make sense to choose the bimetalic case over the polymer one.

I disagree.  Yes, the TV ammo is technologically superior, but it cannot at present be fired in the SIG weapons.  Since it appears the Army wants to field NGSW ASAP, using SIG ammo in SIG guns makes far more sense than expending the time and money necessary to make SIG guns shoot TV ammo.

"Perfect is the enemy of good enough."

stancrist

From: stancrist

20/4/22

gatnerd said:

Weapons like Stinger, as well as the new 'Drone Guns' that jam them, are going to be extremely important at the Squad level...

Yikes!  I pity the poor grunt who has to carry that monstrosity.  grimacing

stancrist

From: stancrist

20/4/22

nincomp said:

I think that it is unreasonable to believe that the US will not be soon running into at least some foes who are able to wear the kind of protection that it has been using for a couple decades.  The price of effective body armor is falling every day and the current events are pointing out WHY it is worth getting.  As slowly as the US Military works, it is important to at least have something available to deal with even small groups of well armored adversaries.  The US may even learn something and (reasonably) quickly develop a better alternative.

Good points.  Quite logical.

nincomp said:

We do not yet know how many soldiers on both sides have been killed or wounded with small arms...

Precisely.  And in the context of the body armor debate, how many that were wearing armor, were killed or wounded with small arms?

Also, in the context of the PDW/HE squad concept, how many of those wearing armor were killed or wounded by handheld HE weapons?

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

20/4/22

You have a point here about us not  necessarily knowing that the TV ammo will work in the sig guns and the February 24th thing.

As far as the video goes t's still online and sig hasn't pulled it down, not that it matters anyway since the army is going to do what it's going to do.

It's going to be very interesting to see where all of this goes from here.

At least we got an AMAZING new optic out of the deal though. The optic is the real bright spot here.

stancrist

From: stancrist

20/4/22

roguetechie said:

As far as the video goes t's still online and sig hasn't pulled it down...

Of course SIG has not pulled it down.  The video is not SIG's to pull down.  It belongs to T&P.

roguetechie said:

It's going to be very interesting to see where all of this goes from here.

At least we got an AMAZING new optic out of the deal though. The optic is the real bright spot here.

Concur on both counts.  sunglasses

Apsyda

From: Apsyda

20/4/22

Perfect being the enemy of good enough on a project that probably doesn't even need to happen is silly if being used as the decision making rationale.

The least they can do on their wundermagnum dream gun, is make sure that its not using an ass-backwards ammo design when that was at least 50% of the project.

stancrist

From: stancrist

20/4/22

Apsyda said:

Perfect being the enemy of good enough on a project that probably doesn't even need to happen is silly if being used as the decision making rationale

No one knows the future.  Only time will tell for certain if NGSW is worth doing, as well as whether or not there is enough time to re-engineer the SIG guns to fire TV ammo before they are needed on the battlefield.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

20/4/22

The Orthopedic-Industrial Complex has purchased Stan!stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye

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