gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 502158 views.
graylion

From: graylion

22-Apr

I wonder whether other nations will adopt it.

stancrist

From: stancrist

22-Apr

Apsyda said:

That was the plan back when they thought they had a good shot at winning the competition.

That still is the plan.  That was posted by TV about a week ago. 

The only apparent difference is that the rifle's name was changed from Genesis to Amicus.

True Velocity Seizes Momentum in Global Adoption of Lightweight 6.8mm Round (prnewswire.com)

Apsyda said:

Otherwise, TV is an ammo company rather than a gun company.

TV bought LoneStar.  Which makes TV a gun company as well as an ammo company.

Gr1ff1th

From: Gr1ff1th

22-Apr

Smokeless powder was the product of French army lab, it wasn't tested by civilians first, it was basically the NGSW of it's day except actually good

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

22-Apr

Current weight estimate:

SIG rifle = 8.4lbs

SIG Suppressor = 1.19lbs

NGSW Optic ~ 2.2lbs

Total = 11.79lbs

Cartridge weight estimated at 22g.

Lanncer 20rd mag = 6.4oz

Loaded 20rd mag = 1.37lbs

Loaded NGSW= 13.16lbs

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

22-Apr

It's not actually possible that TV's cases don't work. We've got more TV ammo out in the wild and being shot than we have of sig ammo.

It really is ok to just straight out say the army made an extremely stupid call here.

The world won't end, that's what happened, and all we can hope for now is that whoever in the army is afraid of muh plastic ammo gets fired or reassigned so the army can correct it's course in time.

I don't like saying any of this but this is the truth of the situation as it currently stands 

EmericD

From: EmericD

22-Apr

Gr1ff1th said:

Smokeless powder was the product of French army lab, it wasn't tested by civilians first, it was basically the NGSW of it's day except actually good

Smokeless powder was known before Paul Vieille managed to make it a suitable propellant for small-arms in 1884.

You can find patent for civilian smokeless powder 20 years before Paul Vieille started its own work.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

22-Apr

You noticed the most important parts of that press appearance.

The reason they kept coming back to how quickly they made a procurement is because this was the inaugural use of a new procurement model the army is using. The ONLY critical thing army needed to get out of this program was showing this new procurement model to be successful and fast.

This is why both companies got an IDIQ contract at the finals down select.

What this also means is that until that contract with Lonestar/tv is terminated they can technically change their mind while saying the program was successful to Congress.

It is what it is at this point.

stancrist

From: stancrist

22-Apr

roguetechie said:

It's not actually possible that TV's cases don't work.

???  No one said that TV's cases don't work.

roguetechie said:

It really is ok to just straight out say the army made an extremely stupid call here.

What would be stupid is to say the Army "made an extremely stupid call" without knowing the Army's reason(s) for making that call.

stancrist

From: stancrist

22-Apr

EmericD said:

Interesting to see Mr. Sal Fanelli in the video.

I corresponded with Sal Fanelli when he was at FN some years ago, but we never met and I wouldn't recognize him.

US Army to Convert M240 Machine Guns to 6.8mm | Next Generation Squad Weapons (NGSW)

On March 16, 2022 at 08:31 am EDT the United States Army released a sources sought notice for a 6.8mm conversion kit for the M240B and M240L machine guns. Th...

The Amicus Next Gen Rifle is the Most Advanced Civilian Rifle Ever Created

True Velocity Weapons is excited to announce the most advanced rifle ever created, the commercial version of the Next Generation Squad Weapons platform, the ...

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

22-Apr

There's a reason I feel pretty confident in saying that the army made a mistake.

1. We know from existing documentation that the sig belt fed is a 10 moa gun too, giving us another strong indication that what we're dealing with is a bad projectile design for some reason since it's not producing the kind of accuracy we really want in anything.

2. The sig ammo is $3 per round government cost for the GP and iirc $10+ per shot of the advap thing whatever it's called.

3. The sig "hybrid case" .277 fury commercial ammo is ALSO $3 per round currently. This means we can safely assume that the GP projectile doesn't cost significantly more than whatever match bullet they're currently using in the civvie ammo. 

4. Brass case .277 fury is SIGNIFICANTLY CHEAPER (and is also actually in stock)

5. From the 3 items above we can conclude that the sig hybrid case and propellants themselves are the primary cost generator here. A cost that there's basically zero likelihood will drop for the 2-5 years before lake city lines come online IF lake city can do it cheaper somehow!

6. There's absolutely nothing stopping TV from loading it's cases up to 85k psi.(which would generate substantially higher MV in the same bbl length because of the efficiency bump from polymer which is pretty significant at these sizes at these pressures) TV kept the loading to the pressures it did specifically to ensure m240 etc backwards compatibility not because they can't load to higher pressures.

7. The TV case actually has a safety margin if ran to 85k psi whereas the sig case is running at the edge of what brass can stand with very little if any proper safety margin.

8. WHEN SIG cases fail, they inevitably will, even if there isn't the engineering issue people think there is at the joint between steel and brass, it will never be a mild failure. Brass is basically at the plastic flow point at these pressures meaning when there's a failure you're going to weld the case into the chamber permanently.

9. The sig round has the dangerous weak point.

10. At these elevated pressures the material behaviors of the polymers TV is using are far more forgiving than brass and upon failure won't catastrophically destroy guns and potentially the shooter too.

11. Going over funding priorities for this year in the ammunition development category it's been noticed that both aeroshell research and the 50 bmg advanced tactical cartridge funding have been zeroed out. Someone in army procurement has an irrational fear of polymer.

12. The Marines don't have this fear and are charging ahead on multiple polymer ammo related projects which have already proven themselves in other applications.

When you combine these 12 individual points it points to either an institutional bias or militant stupidity, neither of which are good reasons to adopt a weapon and cartridge system that are clearly not up to snuff.

Throw in the cost per round aspect and you're suddenly looking at the one thing they evasively kept saying during the announcement ("great value") isn't even there.

So yes Stan, I feel very comfortable confident and not the least but stupid about calling the army's decision stupid because it is in fact baffling stupid.

P.s. I had more points, I stopped at 12 for the sake of brevity. Considering my penchant for stupid long posts, that should say something.

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