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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 553881 views.
RovingPedant

From: RovingPedant

5/6/22

A helmet mounted display would offer certain advantages (firing around corners without sticking your head around corners) but displays aren't very heavy* and you'll still want direct optics on the gun, if only for the power-less backup option.

The "normal" firing position associated with rifles is only partly to look down the sights though, it also offers stability. I'm not sure how far you'd be able to hold a worthwhile group without a decent braced position.

That said, the US army looks like they're going to have helmet mounted displays anyway** which claim to be good to 300m with an M4, though they don't give details on the targets in question.

 

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57dc111b414fb5bdb26a7ff6/t/593ff72a9f7456b671728248/1497364272271/TAC-EYE+2.0.pdf

** https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2020/11/27/us-soldiers-hail-armys-futuristic-goggles-something-almost-out-of-a-video-game/

nincomp

From: nincomp

5/6/22

 Is there any information available yet as to the actual armor penetration of the 6.8 NGSW round in tungsten or steel penetrator form?  If not, based on the current state of the art, what is it likely to be?  I know this has been discussed, but I can't recall the answers.

Is the Anthena PPI-style AP bullet considered the most effective, or has that been improved upon?

EmericD

From: EmericD

6/6/22

stancrist said:

Actually, the .276 Pedersen was a 7mm cartridge, not 6.8mm.

Yep, but I was referring more to the round muzzle energy (~2800 J) and impulse (6.9 N.s) than to the bullet diameter.

stancrist said:

I don't follow.  How does it explain why SOCOM resumed work on the 6.5 CM program?

The training / practice 6.8x51 mm does not seem to deliver something the 6.5 mm Creedmoor is not already doing, the GP & SP loads are still in the development phase and there is no "match" ammo planned.

Special Forces shoot  a lot of ammo and they need to replace their weapons every ~5 years, so they could adopt 6.5 mm weapons now and wait until 2027-2028 in order to switch to the 6.8 mm if the cartridge is still there.

stancrist

From: stancrist

6/6/22

EmericD said:

The training / practice 6.8x51 mm does not seem to deliver something the 6.5 mm Creedmoor is not already doing, the GP & SP loads are still in the development phase and there is no "match" ammo planned.

The 6.8x51 ammo situation seems insufficient reason to resume the 6.5 CM program. 

They also need to develop GP/Ball, SP/AP and Tracer ammo for 6.5 CM machine guns.

It would be much easier to develop 6.8 match ammo and let the Army do the others.

EmericD said:

Special Forces shoot  a lot of ammo and they need to replace their weapons every ~5 years, so they could adopt 6.5 mm weapons now and wait until 2027-2028 in order to switch to the 6.8 mm if the cartridge is still there.

That sounds logical.  Assuming the 6.5 CM weapons are fully developed and ready for production.

SOCOM can use ordinary FMJ ammo in the 6.5 machine guns while EPR ammo is being developed.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

7/6/22

Considering that we are just now adding a 6.5CM to our SF arsenal, something that i have been heavily involved in. Its about getting guns now not 10years down the line when 6.8NGSW might mature to wholesale adoption .Aslo with 6.5CM you can these days choose from bunch of gun and ammo manufacturers, getting something adopted that only SigSauer makes is a big no no.

While true SF uses their guns a lot it's still hard to budge the bureaucracy to purchase something new. For example, buying a replacement barrel ,upper or whole gun of same model is no big deal but adding something new is a very slow process. The 6.5CM we are now introducing are sort of an experiment coupled with Steiner IFS scopes with ballistic computers and .300NM, 338NM bolt action guns to see what gives , before Military even remotely considers any wider adoption.

stancrist

From: stancrist

7/6/22

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

Considering that we are just now adding a 6.5CM to our SF arsenal, something that i have been heavily involved in.

To which "we" are you referring?

stancrist

From: stancrist

8-Jun

EmericD said:

I'm not really convinced that the FCS will really help to hit a moving target at 600 m.

That's okay.  I'm not convinced that the FCS will really help hit most targets -- moving or stationary -- at any distance in combat.

EmericD said:

But against a visible, static target (something very rare on the battlefield), the FCS will be a huge game-changer.

Which means the FCS will not be a game-changer.  So, does it really matter what caliber the next-gen infantry rifle is?

Msg 7519.2876 deleted
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

8-Jun

Weapon or caliber is of minor importance , optronics are absolute gamechangers

FCS will help in many situations , even with moving targets as an individual soldier will be able to accurately set his dope on the fly , for example range a structure in the area and when fleeting targets appear have much higher hit probabilty. 

FCS will progress to electronic triggers and then your dumb poorly trained grunt will have near sniper-like capability. Any new firearm developed without provision for an electronic trigger is borderline obsolete before it hits the market.

Drones are the obvious target and an easy one due to lack of ground clutter, but FCS will develop to handle ground cutter noise better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvhrhw4jIC4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91sf7B6WpbI

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