gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 575995 views.
EmericD

From: EmericD

12/9/19

gatnerd said...

How this is 20% lighter remains to be seen...

I'm seeing "brass case" and "metal base", so maybe the base is not steel?.

The weight reduction of ~20% is not an impossible task if the base represent 60% of typical a brass case total weight, and replacing this brass base with lightweight alloy base.

stancrist

From: stancrist

12/9/19

gatnerd said...

Textrons submission now public:  LMG looks great.

Indeed.  And it's interesting to see that, like SIG Sauer, Textron opted to go with a belt-fed machine gun, instead of a mag-fed automatic rifle.

 

gatnerd said...

Carbine looks absolutely awful though, the forward 'tumor' has grown even larger since the 6.5 CT carbine:

This likely would have been better as a bullpup, so that the 'tumor' could be tucked into the stock/above the pistol grip, allowing a slimmer, easier handgaurd.

I think it would be at least as bad as a bullpup.  It would be extremely ass heavy, and have a length of pull better suited to apes than humans.

poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

12/9/19

Look at the lenght of CT cartridges. Compare them with the pens to the left

 
Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

12/9/19

They need to give us all here a case or two to play with.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

12/9/19

"Look at the lenght of CT cartridges. Compare them with the pens to the left."

Good catch! I didn't even notice them till you mentioned them.

I cropped the image and edited it (poorly) to help make them stand out more:

Also, on the second pass I spotted the 6.8 mag. Looks fairly thick, but is sadly not a quadstack as hinted at in some of Textrons patents.

 
 
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

12/9/19

"I'm seeing "brass case" and "metal base", so maybe the base is not steel?.

The weight reduction of ~20% is not an impossible task if the base represent 60% of typical a brass case total weight, and replacing this brass base with lightweight alloy base."

Several different articles over the last few months have mentioned a steel base / brass body. It's possible they are all wrong in their reporting; that said the bases sure look shiny like machined steel. 

 

Shell Shock achievers a 50% case weight / ~20% cartridge weight savings using an aluminum base / thin wall steel body, so if they are using aluminum instead of steel that would be good.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

12/9/19

"I think it would be at least as bad as a bullpup.  It would be extremely ass heavy, and have a length of pull better suited to apes than humans."

The ideal is a neutral ballance over the pistol grip, ala the AUG. 

But if the choice is massively front heavy, or massively ass heavy, ass heavy is definitely how to go, especially once suppressors and accessories are added. 

When the weapon is ass heavy, quite a bit of that weight is supported by the shoulder, and then the rest is largely supported by the shooting hand a the pistol grip. This grip is held close to the body, and the closer a weight is to the shoulder, the easier it is to support.

As an example of this, its possible to shoot bullpups one handed fairly accurately:

With a very front heavy weapon, most of the weight is supported by the shooters left arm, held away from the body, which exerts more mechanical leverage against the shoulder and makes it more fatiguing. 

An example of this is why 'fly weight' exercises use very light weights - when held away from the shoulder, even a ~5lb weight is very fatiguing after awhile:

So a very front heavy rifle sucks more then a very ass heavy rifle. 

stancrist

From: stancrist

12/9/19

I did not need a lecture on the balance and handling of bullpups, thanks.  I am just as aware of those charcteristics as you.

However, I did grossly misread your post, and thought you were talking about locating the pistol grip in front of the "tumor"

A bullpup with pistol grip near the center of balance seems possible, but the gun would be rather tall.  Something like this:

  • Edited 12 September 2019 22:10  by  stancrist
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

12/9/19

"A bullpup with pistol grip near the center of balance seems possible, but the gun would be rather tall.  Something like this"

I actually got to handle the Tavor12 at SHOT show last year. It looks weird but actually handled surprisingly well. 

The 'tallness' could be an advantage as well, in that it would likely make a longer, 30rd magazine more palatable. 

autogun

From: autogun

13/9/19

gatnerd said...

With a very front heavy weapon, most of the weight is supported by the shooters left arm, held away from the body, which exerts more mechanical leverage against the shoulder and makes it more fatiguing. 

I experienced a painful example of that a couple of years ago, when trying out a SCAR H fitted with a heavy TI night sight + scope combination. I had great difficulty in getting a clear view through the sight (as described HERE) and spent so long trying to get a sight picture that my left arm just gave up. I had to lie down to shoot the gun. I'm an old guy now, but I'm not in bad shape for my age. I went on to shoot some Tavors from the standing position, and they were no problem at all - I could have carried on all day with those.

PS My left shoulder gave me trouble for months afterwards, I must have seriously overstrained it.

 

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