Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3325
  • 188627
  • 37


LMAO Germany adopts an AR-15   Small Arms <20mm

Started 14/9/20 by QuintusO; 100860 views.

From: poliorcetes


I wonder why HK designers interfaced directly the polimer receiver with the metallic trunnion instead of using more metallic mass in an internal cage or rails like AUG or Tavor


From: renatohm


Because the requirements were for a featherweight rifle, and doing that would add weight.

Recall that, at the time, Germany wouldn't fight outside of Europe, so the requirements didn't envision high temperatures.


From: JPeelen


The very core of ELINT is to detect emissions at much, much larger ranges than the opposite side believes possible. Add to that the many surprises in the history of "passive" devices that could be remotely activated at astonishing ranges. I still remember the image of Henry Cabot Lodge presenting a cutaway wooden U.S. Seal to the United Nations, that was in reality a Soviet, absolutely passive listening device.  

Not to mention the growing omnipresence of active(!) Bluetooth devices.  

Like you, I am also quite certain that the intention of the round counter is just for maintenance. That makes it really awful.  For a "nice to have" maintenance gimmick, the very real risk is taken that the enemy can use it for detecting the presence of our soldiers.         


From: roguetechie


If they were going for a feather light rifle they sure as shit missed the mark since it's an 8 pound 16" bbl gun.

The reality is that the bundeswehr was looking for a CHEAP rifle. They didn't need it to be feather light or anything else, just cheap.

Hk delivered cheap, unfortunately at the cost of having it be tragically flawed.

And, I don't care how hard the German government pencil whipped the "tests" to say that overheating isn't the issue...

The pictures freely available of multiple melty trunnions off former US swat team g36's tells the actual tale.

That said, I do like the Steyr redesign much better than the Wilcox abomination.

I can't pretend that I don't hope we get to see a Glock entrant in the second round of competition the bundeswehr now needs to do though.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)


Hoped for HK433 as i just can't seriously consider a non-folding stock rifle in a modern mechanized military to even make into the running .

Ar-15 clones are not winning purely on merit there is lots of cultural influence, being the good guy gun ''as seen on TV'' . I see this effect all the time with the military and LE folks . I make a lot of specialized gear for snipers and its often, like we have seen this on a show or on TV and we want something like that without having any experience with said gear, It was even crazier back in the 90's , sometimes i taught its a wishlist of weapons used by Chuck Norris or from Miami Vice.

* the funkiest one that comes to mind was the Croatian VHS , just because they had a high-ranking officer, veteran of civil war, that previously served the Legion, telling them that he wants a gun of similar ergonomy, they went down the rabid hole of trying to make their own Famas. 


From: roguetechie


I do like the 433 myself but saying that the AR-15 isn't winning on merit is at best not entirely true.

It is one of those systems that's the rare combination of good light and cheap that's very hard to beat.

And with the prevalence and need for optics and other enablers to be mounted, weight is a BIG DEAL!

The fun and scary thing is that the AR-15 isn't even close to maxed out performance and reliability wise.

There's still quite a bit of meat on this particular bone.

Additionally though, I really question the need for a folding stock. Yes they're cool and a nice to have but with how far the stock already collapses the AR just isn't so big as to be a real problem. 

Even assuming that the stock is a deal breaker you can cut the buffer tube down by as much as half without really hurting the reliability of the gun etc.

You can even pretty trivially increase its durability too.

Mind you, I'm not saying that sticking with the AR-15 is the way to go because I genuinely don't think that. I know that you could definitely do better. 

More importantly than that, with the weight and variety of sights and accessories front line troops will need to do their jobs going forward even the AR-15 or a notional souped up product improved and lighter AR-15 is still going to tip the scales at close to loaded garand weight once you stack on everything you need and a 30 round magazine of a lightweight cases super 5.56.

And therein lies the problem, the current alternatives to the AR-15 all range from a little to a lot heavier than a comparably equipped AR.

 That's going the wrong direction


From: gatnerd


poliorcetes said:

I wonder why HK designers interfaced directly the polimer receiver with the metallic trunnion instead of using more metallic mass in an internal cage or rails like AUG or Tavor

I imagine cost was the primary factor. Injection overmolding the receiver over a metal trunnion is a lot less machining and material then having a solid aluminum receiver. 

I imagine that H&K, having spent the last 30 years working on the G11 only to have it canceled, was also a bit sapped $ and R&D wise in 1990-95 when the G36 was designed. 

Its a shame that Germany went with the G36 vs the AUG, which was its direct competitor in the competition. The AUG not only has more thermal stability, its so modular that it can be very easily upgraded and modernized while retaining compatibility with legacy parts. 

That said, hindsight is 20/20. The G36 certainly looked super cool and modern in its introduction, and I doubt many in 1990-5, when 'history had ended' imagined Germany would be fighting sand people in hours long rifle battles thousands of miles from home. 


From: poliorcetes


First, G36 was a political selection and not a technical one. Technical was inclined to AUG

But second, G36 in Spanish service has work just right. Remember that we have scorching temperatures during summer, specially in the South but not only. During Spanish Army deployments in NATO missions there haven't been significant issues AFAIK


From: poliorcetes


As I answered to Renato, AUG was the chosen one by the Spanish Army testers. But politics.

The very interesting development of all this story is that G36 didn't suffer any problem close to what it is said that happen with the Bundeswehr.

The new program is motivated in Germany by political reasons. A politician (Von der Leyen) and its group prefer to sacrifice taxpayer money and endanger HK reputation rather than lose face and admit that the process was conducted shittily.

Some years after that, Von der Leyen is presiding the EC, which has managed the European vaccination effort as shit again


From: Farmplinker


I seem to recall Spain spent the extra money for the "more temperature extremes tolerant" version of the G36. HK offered that version to the German government, but they didn't want to spend the money.