Military Guns and Ammunition

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LMAO Germany adopts an AR-15   Small Arms <20mm

Started 14/9/20 by QuintusO; 42680 views.

From: stancrist


roguetechie said:

In the replacement program you don't have to break down the guns sort and gauge the parts refinish them reorder out of spec pieces etc....

Yeah.  I was only addressing your statement that the upgrade option would require pulling the old guns back to depots, and cost money to do so.  The replacement option would also require pulling the old guns back to depots, incurring the same costs.

I was remiss in not saying that I agree with you regarding cost of disassembly, sorting, gauging, and other aspects of doing an upgrade.

roguetechie said:

In a way going to a new rifle is "easier" on several fronts.



From: EmericD


I don't understand how the price could widely change during one contract.

Do you mean that the USMC had a good price for the 50,000 guns they ordered after the initial M27 contract (~8400 rifles), then the price goes up again after that contract because they wanted more guns?

The only information I have is that the price tag was around 1300$ per rifle for the 50,000 rifles contract, to be delivered between 2018 and 2023.


From: roguetechie


The price went back up on everything but that contract yes and that's not the only contract delivering 416's.

The Marines are paying about 3k per gun for everything but those, and they may not even be getting all of those for $1500.

Considering what the 416 Is and the price of an m4a1 (still under $700) it's way too much at $1500 anyway.

Also on the being forced to buy an entire BCG every time they need a replacement bolt, they're paying disturbingly close to the cost of an m4 per BCG due to how the sustainment contract is written.

Edit: and I know I don't need to remind you how much the 416 doesn't like m855a1. Because the Marines use m855a1 their breakage rates are phenomenally higher than if they were using a different round.

We talked once about how the 416 could be adapted to fire m855a1 without beating up the gun as much. But since it's the DOD and they don't change tdp's that won't happen.

So the Marines are stuck with a too expensive gun that breaks parts at 2-3 times the rate of m4a1 and they're paying on average many times as much to get Spares because of how their sustainment contract is written.


From: roguetechie


It's all good Stan, it provided an opportunity to clarify things a little better.


From: poliorcetes


But just pay attention to that basic disassembly that I posted. Dude, less than 20 operations, change receiver, assembly again


From: stancrist


Dude, the exploded diagram you posted only shows the various components.  It tells me nothing about what tools might be needed, or what procedures must be followed to separate them.

For instance, what is involved in barrel removal and installation?  Does it require special tools?  Does it need to be headspaced?  If so, do those tasks need to be done by an armorer?

And I'm puzzled why you even asked me the question, since my statement was only about pulling guns back to the depot.  I did not express any opinion on the ease or difficulty of performing an upgrade.


From: roguetechie


You can download the full armorer manual set for it here.

It's only medium involved.


From: marandreas


taschoene said:

Yeah, you get a feel for this given the full "optional" scope of the retrofit includes a new barrel, fore-end, mag well, etc.  When you get to the point that all you're keeping of the original gun is the stock and trigger group, you're better off starting from scratch. 

Hmm, one advantage traditional rifles have over bullpups is that they can be fitted with visor-compatible stocks / "gas mask stocks."

There's a neat one with a removable cheek piece for the G36, specifially - if you're already upgrading the rifles, you might as well get some of those, right?

And since this is a Steyr upgrade, I think they should at least offer an option for an AUG-style trigger guard and pull-through trigger.

Just a matter of corporate design, you know?

I don't suppose there's an aftermarket bolt assembly for the G36?

With a bit more effort we might be able to replace literally every part, while still billing it as a refit smile


From: Farmplinker


"We rebuilt the rifles to just as good as new".


From: renatohm


Seems that HK is one step closer to be declared the winner.

Can you elaborate on how procurement works in Germany?