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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

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50 cal MG with multi-lug rotating bolt mechanism   General Military Discussion

Started 21-Sep by tidusyuki; 2002 views.
autogun

From: autogun

22-Sep

I think that the M2HB has survived because: 

1. It functions well enough to be not worth the cost of changing for reliability reasons, and:

2. The performance of the gun and ammo is good enough to be not worth the cost of changing for performance reasons.

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

22-Sep

Kord has multi-lug rotary bol; i do not have pic of the bolt handy, but here's an image of its barrel breech area..


and here's the CIS 50 bolt

  • Edited 22 September 2020 9:17  by  mpopenker
jxexqx

From: jxexqx

22-Sep

Apart from lighter weight, what features could a newer gun possess? Higher rate of fire? Dual feed? Greater reliability or ease of maintenance? 

Lighter weight is no advantage for what is almost always a vehicle mounted weapon

Higher rate of fire is unnecessary

Dual feed is redundant when you have no need to choose between AP and HE.

The M2 is reliable enough so why change it?

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

22-Sep

Yeah that kinda worked when our adversaries weren't pumping out 18.5 kg 12.7x108 guns like they're going out of style that can be fired off the bipod and etc.

Especially when "our response" is paying FN to "lightweight" qcb m2's using the same strategy that worked oh so we'll for the m240L and mk48...

The m2 is a perfect example of taking if it ain't broke don't fix it way too far.

Sure the m2 was great for a majority of it's time in service but the sheer idiocy of lightweighting, and thus quadrupling or more the cost to build of designs that have been able to get the senior discount at McDonald's before the lightweighting programs even start is the height of stupidity.

The erroneous and emotionally manipulative arguments you get from people who are against replacing these literally geriatric designs play right into the hands of people who are happy to make obscene amounts punching out shit that doesn't really fit our needs anymore are just plain ridiculous.

Yet people make frankly disingenuous arguments that attempt to make it seem like moving on from designs that are far past their prime is disrespectful play into the hands of those who thrive on mediocrity and high profit margins. Oh, and they don't give a single fuck if they're actually damaging our ability to be competitive in modern combat as long as they get paid.

And people who care more about nostalgia than Actually giving people the tools they need to do their job safely fall for it every time.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

22-Sep

It definitely wasn't on economic grounds since at the Time the DOD was paying $10,000 each for m2's while gd quoted about a $2000 per gun price in initial production runs

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

22-Sep

Have you ever seen m2's used off a tripod?

Have you ever seen the sheer amount of time and work it takes to emplace a tripodded m2?

Not only would new guns potentially offer dual selectable feed and lighter weight but also far more manageable recoil characteristics which equate to much easier and faster emplacing when necessary.

If it ain't broke don't fix it only gets you so far when the Chinese and Russians are punching out 18.5kg 12.7x108 guns you absolutely can take you with you.

Especially in combination with their lightweight AGL's which can be emplaced and ran by two dudes that weigh less all up including multiple boxes of belted ammo the AGL itself and it's tripod that weigh less in total than a mark 19.

At the end of the day, if it ain't broke don't fix it only applies to situations where it ain't freakin broke.

Since the situation is broke though, we should seriously consider fixing it.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

22-Sep

There is the Mk. 47 now, so we have a lighter AGL than the Mk. 19. I also wonder about the reliability of these ultra-lightweight 12.7 MGs.

I'm more worried about the opposition developing really low cost man portable guided munitions.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

22-Sep

I'm worried about both tbqh. That is an option too you know?

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

23-Sep

Kord-12.7 heavy machine gun is not Ultra-LW, as it is about 32 kg on bipod plus about 11 kg for a can with 50 linked rounds; but it still can be maneuvered through the battlefield by a team of two or three men; It is also can be dismounted from a lightweight ATV to be used on ground if vehicle is disabled or team is temporary holding a stationary position

autogun

From: autogun

23-Sep

I'll add a third reason to my list of reasons why the M2 remains in service: there's not a lot of point in saving some weight on the gun given the massive weight of a moderate supply of ammo for it. Now if TV did a neckless polymer .50 cal round that would be a different matter.

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