autogun

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by autogun

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

  • 3177
    MEMBERS
  • 180491
    MESSAGES
  • 0
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

Marines JLTV RWS: 30mm + 7.62 + Stinger   Army Guns 20+mm

Started 21-Sep by gatnerd; 1124 views.
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

22-Sep

autogun said:

nteresting that the US is suddenly planning to acquire, or actually acquiring, three cannon to replace the multi-purpose 25 mm M242: the 30 mm Mk 44/XM813 in 30 x 173 for the USN, and the Army on board some of the Stryker fleet); the 50 mm XM913 in 50 x 228 for whatever replaces the Bradley; and now the M230LF/XM914 in 30 x 113B for smaller AFVs. 

I know for the 30x113, a big factor was the airburst capability for countering UAV's and infantry.

For the US navy, I think testing showed that 30mm was more effective against small boats. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FAPcK9uPwo&feature=youtu.be&t=425

In both applications, the AC is primarily a 'HE delivery' system vs armor penetrator, which would favor a wider diameter shell. 

Not really sure whats up with the 50mm. I'd assume its over concerns that current IFV's can stop 30x173 APFDS, or will be able to in the future. But it could be to maximize HE airburst capability as well. 

autogun

From: autogun

22-Sep

Yes, the 50mm gun provides both an improved armour penetration and - even more so - a bigger and more effective HE airburst shell.

The 30 mm Mk 44 has a less obvious advantage for the Navy; it can use APFSDS "Swimmer" hydroballistic (supercavitating) ammo which shoots straight through waves without much deviation or velocity loss. Good for hitting small craft in rough seas.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

22-Sep

autogun said:

The 30 mm Mk 44 has a less obvious advantage for the Navy; it can use APFSDS "Swimmer" hydroballistic (supercavitating) ammo which shoots straight through waves without much deviation or velocity loss. Good for hitting small craft in rough seas.

Yes, in general I think the 25-30mm AC on ships (like our LCS) are really mediocre weapons, combining short range, limited stopping power against boats, and poor rate of fire. 

I'd rather see them replaced with something like a 20-30 shot Martlet/APKWS launching turret, as the 'gun' role can be better handled by the ships 57mm.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

22-Sep

SEARAM. 8 RAMs on a trainable mount derived from the Phalanx system.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

22-Sep

Yeah, the rolling airframe missile would also be a good option, already has a 21 shot launcher, and can also provide air defense / anti missile as well. 

Downside is I think the rolling airframes are pretty expensive, $998k.

Whereas APKWS is $30k, and Hellfire $90k; I assume Martlet is something in between.

DavidPawley

From: DavidPawley

22-Sep

SEARAM is a CIWS though.

MK44 is a replacement for pintle mounted M2HB, controllable by CIC for superior capability vs small surface targets.

tldr navy autocannon are big MG, not small NGS or DP.

taschoene

From: taschoene

22-Sep

I think there is value in a 25-30mm gun, as warning shots and for some defense against really small boats.  But I tend to agree with the idea of mounting something like APKWS on the same mount.  They've already demoed a 5-round Martlet pack on the standard RN 30mm mount, which seems like a very sensible idea.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

22-Sep

taschoene said:

I think there is value in a 25-30mm gun, as warning shots and for some defense against really small boats.  But I tend to agree with the idea of mounting something like APKWS on the same mount.  They've already demoed a 5-round Martlet pack on the standard RN 30mm mount, which seems like a very sensible idea

I'd figure the 57mm already provides warning shot capability no? And a more authoritative warning at that. 

The range on the 30mm is short enough that even a small boat with an anti-tank rocket like the Koronet would be in range of the ship before the 30mm could engage. 

Anti tank used against ship:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/claims-missile-attack-egypt-navy-boat

While an AT missile wont sink a ship, it would certainly cause significant damage.

In reply toRe: msg 12
Refleks

From: Refleks

23-Sep

Naval guns are so rarely used in anger I am an advocate of phasing out of the 127mm and divesting it's supply chain, I'd rather consolidate and share the 155mm chain with the Army / Marines. 

In fact, I would go so far as to say I would like to see the 76mm and 127mm phased out on future combatants in favor of a marinized 155mm SPG mounted hull down in a recess on the deck, chained down, with a rubberized weather barrier between the hull and the deck.  Peak recoil impulse mitigated though the SPG's own suspension (along with the typical muzzle brake and recoiling gun) and reinforced deck rather than the more complex arrangement they attempted with MONARC when they were just using the turret.   Thinking in terms of modular weapons systems, it would be plug and play and have a software mode available specifically for this role. At ~$68k a pop, 60 rounds of GPS / RAP+GPS guided ammunition onboard should be more than sufficient for a cruise unless specifically planning to operate in a NGFS role, and Raytheon has already been working on GPS guided ammunition with MMW terminal guidance and shaped trajectories.  The position could be occupied instead by a marinized future MLRS / GMLRS or a marinized SPAA / C-RAM (a gun / missile system along the lines of Gepard or Tunguska)

 This would likely require a new build SPG designed with a maritime environment in mind from the start, as IIRC they ran into difficulty marinizing the PZh2000.  This isn't the end of the world in my opinion, as I also advocate for a USMC with a mechanized brigade available at theater level, and would therefore be operating the same SPG for land use, capable of operating in a saltwater environment, likewise the Army would also use the same system.

I understand the position of many that there's no point in spending the money at all when the 127mm is good enough and I suppose that's true.  The 155mm option requires people manning the turret and uses separate ammunition, which I acknowledge is not ideal, but despite those issues I'm still in favor of it, even if it's nothing more than musing.  

  • Edited 23 September 2020 0:25  by  Refleks
TOP