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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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Doubt about AK-12 design   Small Arms <20mm

Started 10-Oct by poliorcetes; 3177 views.
mpopenker

From: mpopenker

12-Oct

A545 is a nice rifle, however only real life use could show if all that added complication and cost is worth the added effectiveness in automatic fire, which, according to all historical documents is not that big.

as for AK-12, I never get down to details of its trigger group, and in all honesty i hope that military would drop the 2-rd mode as soon as possible.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

12-Oct

Twice the cost the DOD pays for an m4a1 is not what I'd call super cheap.

Also, I HEAVILY beg to differ on a 4 moa gun being "good enough".

 The serbs are the ones doing aluminum uppers not the Russians btw.

I wish you would take some time to actually get some of your information straight if you are going to posture as authoritatively as you tend to.

It would greatly help the signal to noise ratio of your posts

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

12-Oct

The pics i posted are from Kalashnikov Concern not from Zastava arms Serbia. And the top part looks like it might be aluminum with steel rail riveted in (material looks to thick to be steel)

AKs are far cheaper than DOD pays for M4a1, civilian Saiga clones used to cost about us 400-500$ in shops on European civilian market ( i bought one SAIGA-MK M3 EXP-01 7-8y ago) before the sanctions, that is after 2-3 dealers and 20% VAT ,so would expect AK100 series to be cheaper in bulk , Saiga and 100 series guns are not that dissimilar .

That civilian Saiga  in 5.56 could easily do 3moa with cheap Barnaul ammo so its not unreasonable to asume the AK100series or follow on designs to do the same.

Speaking of noise I would class your post as just such. You getting fired up over nothing

Red7272

From: Red7272

12-Oct

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

The pics i posted are from Kalashnikov Concern not from Zastava arms Serbia. And the top part looks like it might be aluminum with steel rail riveted in (material looks to thick to be steel)

Agree. A CNC could make a bunch of those easily and modifying them is much simpler than steel. As noted previously though I expect the final design to be steel. 

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

AKs are far cheaper than DOD pays for M4a1

And infinitely more reliable. 

nincomp

From: nincomp

12-Oct

In the early 2000's Saiga 7.62x39's went for $199 in the US.  In fact it cost the same as a HiPoint 9mm carbine.  I was looking for the least expensive semi-auto carbines on the market at the time to see what kind of accuracy could be achieved with them.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

12-Oct

Kinda hints to the cost of making an AK  doesn't it. Were those the fugly hunting stock Saigas ,without pistolgrips ,with 5rd mags, fixed birdcage muzzle device and more sporting looking furniture as in those days that was what we in Eu know a B4 category , we had those in the shops as well they were 50-80$ cheaper than the  AK100 series looking clones with folding stocks  and semi proper looking muzzle brakes .

Nowadays Saigas are still on the market here but as they go trough sanction busting network of dealers they now cost closer to 1500$ .Which is a shame as i would love one of those 9mm SAIGA-9 Vitjaz clones  but at these prices there is always Scorpion Evo 

*not a Kalashnikov concern project

Folks in Russia are tinkering around some interesting concepts 

SAG Multicaliber Carbine prototype / test mule

Our try on AK/AR18 hubrid continues. AK bolt with AK carrier modified to work with short-stroke piston. upper/lower recievers and AK trigger.

nincomp

From: nincomp

12-Oct

One of the odd things about that Saiga is that the chamber has a stepped neck.  After firing, the first half of the neck is a larger diameter than the last.  I have never tried to reuse brass, but I doubt that it would resize properly.  

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

12-Oct

... in a conversation about military rifles you bring up saiga's of all things as a comparator for the right around $650 DOD price for m4a1's.

Meanwhile the Russian MOD is paying anywhere between $1000 & $1200 each for ak12's and 15's.

Also meanwhile before the current gun panic here in the US it was downright easy to scoop up a quite nice m4 alike with FNMI made barrels that AT WORST would crank out 2 moa at absolute worst with anything approaching decent ammo for right around $400.

But then again, not being laughably intellectually dishonest, I wouldn't bring up the prices of civilian rifles in a discussion about military firearms because they're irrelevant. (And I'm not habitually intellectually dishonest)

So you spent an entire post trying to "win" an argument by moving the goalposts and being intellectually dishonest because that's what you do.

Meanwhile all the rest of us are over here in the land of people who want to have honest discussions and learn about a topic we're excited by.

It must really suck to be such a miserable elitist self inflated frustrated egotist who is constantly corrected  and upstaged by happy enthusiasts from America who you look down on and loathe so intensely that you genuinely can't hide it.

Pro tip: Stop being so mad about people "not recognizing your brilliance" and refusing to defer to you because you're some sort of professional.

When you're wrong you're wrong. When you're a prick about it constantly it just makes it even more fun to poke you with a stick.

You get mercilessly corrected because you're nowhere near as knowledgeable as a bunch of hobbyists who do this stuff because they love it and are frankly disgusted by the behavior and attitudes of people like you who are all over this industry.

Your kind are 100% the single biggest reason why no innovation and technological progress is being made in this industry when there are entire new vistas that should be being explored and better products made as a result.

If you actually want respect, do something worth respecting and stop pretending that you're the be all end all.

You're not

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

12-Oct

No it really doesn't hint to the cost lmao...

You are worse at economics than you are at guns.

It was is and has been well known from the time when $199 saiga's flowed like water that they were making guns at steep losses to keep the people working and the factories from closing.

This is like saying m4's really only cost $200 because for about two years in the period between 2017 and 2019 you could fairly easily cobble together a parts bin AR for that price...

What happened there?

The market corrected a bunch of bad manufacturers could no longer sell at a loss and quite a few AR companies shut their doors / started machining products they could actually make money of off with their production equipment.

Meanwhile in Russia, companies like KC etc are only really semi private and are propped up by the Russian government when they need to because they're considered strategic production infrastructure

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

12-Oct

Saigas have kinda always been a bit dodgy, made moreso by legislation that required them to be progressively more and more reworked and nonstandard in order to be exported to various countries.

I don't recall ever having any major problems with them though unlike guns from Royal tigers in-house brand century and etc.

I miss those days when you could buy 3 of them and all the parts to un neuter them for under a grand and have an unending stream of build projects that didn't blow the budget

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