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Military Guns and Ammunition

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XM-25 here we go again...   Army Guns 20+mm

Started 9/11/20 by autogun; 15578 views.
Red7272

From: Red7272

23/11/20

jxexqx said:

Probably not. It certainly couldn't put a round through a window, two stories up at 200 yards . . .

Well that is the old soviet RPG with even the Russians make little use of any more. It is an RCL and a more accurate round is certainly possible. Rifling the tube and an expanding plastic driving band to start a slow roll that the fins maintain could be as accurate as the the CG and give much greater flexibility in warhead weight. Aimtronic got the weight to 3.5 kg.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

23/11/20

stancrist said:

Depends on the design parameters.  If the 84mm 441D warhead were scaled down to 66mm, it would be a lot smaller than the 66mm M72E11 warhead.

That raises another interesting question.

How large is the 84mm 441D warhead vs the M72E11?

E11 is 0.8kg HE + 4000 tungsten BB's. But I haven't found the specs for the 441D.

If it turns out the 84mm warhead is comparable in size to the 66mm LAW, then that calls into question the point of even having the CG as a HE lobber. 

Red7272

From: Red7272

23/11/20

Farmplinker said:

The reason why US troops walk so much is because they are often in 1. Vehicle unfriendly terrain, and 2. To get out and talk to the locals. This is the root of the problem of overloading of troops, and won't go away.

Sure it will, as soon as the US stops occupying countries with hostile populations. 

Refleks

From: Refleks

23/11/20

441D fires a 5.07 lbs (2.3kg) projectile with 590g HE fill of PBXN-110, steel body containing an additional 800 steel pellets. Body splinters into fragments approximately the same size as the pellets (unknown if PFF / scored internally).  Safe to 40m, fully armed by 70m, not supposed to engage targets closer than 200m

TOF to 300m ~1.6s, to 700m 3.4s, to 1,000m 5.1s

"Max effective range" setting for airburst is 1250m, for impact is 1,300m

____


HEDP 502RS also fires a 5.07 lbs (2.3kg) projectile with 590g HE fill of PBXN-110 and steel body, not supposed to engage targets less than 150m away, has impact and delay function.

TOF to 150m ~.71s, to 300m, 1.49s, to 600m 3.36s

"Max effective range" 300m vs moving target, 500m vs stationary target, 1,000m vs exposed troops

____


ASM 509 Anti Structure Munition fires a 7.5 lbs (3.4kg)  projectile with 2,000g HE fill of PAX-47, aluminum body with enhanced blast explosive to be used against walls, bricks, concrete and LAVs. Not supposed to engage targets less than 12m(!) away (also the minimum arming distance)


TOF to 150m ~.9s, to 300m, 1.89s, to 450m 2.94s

"Max effective range" supposed to be 300m

All rounds have a limit on the number fired in a 24 hour period for crew/operator safety

More information can be found here (pdf file): https://tinyurl.com/y4g26vys

  • Edited 23 November 2020 20:38  by  Refleks
renatohm

From: renatohm

23/11/20

441D's SAI (Safety, Aiming, and Initiation) unit has an additional 353 g or so PBXN, bringing the total HE fill to some 948 g, or about 41.2% of the shell mass. Better than the 25.7% of the HEDP 502RS but still a far cry from the 58.8% of the ASMB509!

stancrist

From: stancrist

23/11/20

renatohm said:

So why use RCL instead of RPG?

Well, in the US Armed Forces, there seems to be institutional dislike of exposed warheads.

Other than that, I don't know, but I would guess differences in accuracy, time of flight, etc.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

23/11/20

Refleks said:

441D fires a 5.07 lbs (2.3kg) projectile with 590g HE fill of PBXN-110, steel body containing an additional 800 steel pellets. Body splinters into fragments approximately the same size as the pellets (unknown if PFF / scored internally).  Safe to 40m, fully armed by 70m, not supposed to engage targets closer than 200m

Great info, thank you! I'm going to copy that into my notes.

I'm very surprised that the 84mm 441D does not seem to be better then the M72E11; e11 has 800g HE + 4000 tungsten BB's. 

Does anyone know the HE fill for the LAW Anti Structure M72A9? I know the 'reduced caliber' ASM is 400g HE, curious what the full size ASM brings to the table.

If it turns out that the M72 ASM is comparable in payload to the CG 84mm ASM, I'm going to officially throw Carl under the bus.

Especially as the newest LAW's seem to have the option of a Fire From Enclosure variant for urban warfare, which I haven't seen for the CG. 

  • Edited 23 November 2020 21:50  by  gatnerd
Refleks

From: Refleks

24/11/20

renatohm said:

441D's SAI (Safety, Aiming, and Initiation) unit has an additional 353 g or so PBXN, bringing the total HE fill to some 948 g, or about 41.2% of the shell mass

Good catch, missed that.

Refleks

From: Refleks

24/11/20

gatnerd said:

If it turns out that the M72 ASM is comparable in payload to the CG 84mm ASM, I'm going to officially throw Carl under the bus. Especially as the newest LAW's seem to have the option of a Fire From Enclosure variant for urban warfare, which I haven't seen for the CG.

I wouldn't throw it out just yet, they each seem to have their unique advantages. The M72 has a much shorter minimum range, which may be very useful at fireteam / squad level.  On the other hand, Carl Gustav has a larger warhead (as per renatohm's catch), ostensibly better accuracy than rocket propelled counterparts, and potentially nearly double the effective range depending on the target and ammunition.  The crew also runs it for a living, rather than maybe messing with it once in a career before combat.  If I were lobbing airbursting rounds across a valley in Afghanistan, I think you'd still want the CG. If I was being overrun by NVA armor in Vietnam mere meters away, an M72 may be the ticket.

For those reasons I think it makes sense for something like the CG to be at platoon level, with something lighter and shorter minimum range (like M72 or Bur) in the squad.

  • Edited 24 November 2020 0:34  by  Refleks
marielaankn

From: marielaankn

24/11/20

Very Informative Information in your forum

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