schnuersi said:

It falsifies the argument that 5,56 is needed because if the ME. Because if the 7,5FK can do it others could as well.

I think that those who argue for 5.56 do so based on the weapons that actually exist.

Below:  M16 variant in 5.56 NATO

Below:  MP7 variant in 7.5 FK 

Sig Sauer ended the PDW search by delivering a 5.56 ot 300BLK gun in package sized like MP7

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

Sig Sauer ended the PDW search...

That seems doubtful.  AFAIK, the Australian Defence Force is the only army to adopt the Sig MCX Rattler as a PDW, and it's not clear if the ADF intends it to be a general-issue PDW or a special purpose weapon just for SF and MP use.

I have faith in Saint George of Kel-Tec.

We also argue for them based on 5.56 weighing less round per round than even 9x19 which is sorta one of those paradoxes we're fighting here.

It's sorta hard to justify carrying less rounds that are less capable at about the same or more weight.

Like my foxtrot Mike 11.5 weighs 5 pounds naked and isn't much more than 6 fully dressed and can punch 3a armor and give you rifle round killing power out to at least akm effective range (which any noob with some proper basic instruction can use to it's fullest potential pretty quickly after a couple flat range sessions)

In a military setting do I really want to give any of that up to save maybe a couple pounds of weapon weight?

Especially since I can with proper sling setup and a belt mounted slung weapon catch conceal my stockless 11.5 under a coat!

And again I'll emphasize the whole "with rifle projectile killing power out to basically 300 meters" thing because even with my civilian 68 grain bthp match loads I have almost mk318 mod1 killing power on tap.

Switch 318 mod 1 or m855a1 into my 11.5 and it's even more terrifying.

There's a couple other companies that are going to make a run on this particular problem in the near future too.

We could actually see products that change this calculus in the pretty neat future.

Yeah they're great for informal t&e but it's a hell of a jump from that informal t&e to a truly polished military grade use case finished platform.

Maybe we'll get lucky and see manufacturers actually take risks and try some neat new stuff soon.

roguetechie said:

We also argue for them based on 5.56 weighing less round per round than even 9x19...

It's sorta hard to justify carrying less rounds that are less capable at about the same or more weight. Like my foxtrot Mike 11.5 weighs 5 pounds naked and isn't much more than 6 fully dressed and can punch 3a armor and give you rifle round killing power out to at least akm effective range...

In a military setting do I really want to give any of that up to save maybe a couple pounds of weapon weight?

The couple pounds of weapon weight is only one issue.  More important is weapon size, at least for those personnel who truly need a PDW.

For soldiers like this...

...a lightweight, compact 9mm PDW would be much easier to carry than a 5.56 SBR.

So because of new ATF regs my 11.5  no longer has a brace or even a folding buffer tube and has it's optic, which is about to be swapped to a prism optic from a red dot, mounted pretty far forward on a kinda tall and forward biased riser.

I use it "cheek pistol style", which requires some bravery because I'm left handed so brass slings past my face uncomfortably close.

That said, running the gun this way I can still ring a 12" steel gong at 200 meters with basically zero difficulty even rapid fire!

Now would this work for tankers?

I mean it'd definitely be better than their current m4's but with the high riser still pretty far from optimal if I'm being honest.

I could see the riser or the optics themselves getting bashed up pretty good on the hatch openings.

Then again, tank crews don't have to worry about the nfa so they could run a folding stock and a less tall riser and be fully in business.

The nice thing about an 11.5 is that with good civilian ammo you have a bullet spitter that will still have 5.56 fragmenting violently all the way out to the 300 meter akm max range (also a full 100 meters further than the overwhelming majority of small arms casualties are generated aka inside 200 meters so you have a 50% frag range delta over that 200 meter mark)

Rifle round performance when it comes to knocking people down and keeping them down is something I think we ought to be very careful about just letting go of in the name of marginally improved convenience in most cases and places.

But that's just my own personal feeling on this.

I will say that another fun and potentially useful part of running my 11.5 as a cheek gun is that I can run it in a freakishly wide arc while seated in the driver seat of most vehicles with seat belt on without ramming the muzzle into door pillars or etc.

From the passenger seat with someone else driving and with seatbelt off I can essentially cover a full 270 degree swath with very little dead space assuming I don't care about the back windshield!

Would this be handy in a military setting?

Probably not outside of psd work, but if you look at what my solution can do versus the army which picked a 9mm thing for the same role...

Well I know which one I'd rather have!

Pair my 11.5 cheek pistol thing with a euro style shorty reflex can that adds 2 or so inches to barrel length and you even get to mostly keep your hearing if you have to shoot out of rolled up windows!

The reason I'm bringing all this up is simply to show that maybe we already have what we need for this type of engagements we just haven't put together the right techniques to go with already existing platforms.

What kind of hearing protection would be required to avoid deafness and resulting loss of situational awareness?  Is there a hearing protection device that would be available to someone who would be using a PDW in tight spaces?  I have not been following what it available.