gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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Interesting video on NATO PDW Trials   Small Arms <20mm

Started 5/11/21 by nincomp; 4486 views.
roguetechie

From: roguetechie

9/11/21

That's exactly what I'm planning on doing.

And yes I'll report here on my efforts, I have decided on two general concepts to work off of.

The one I think will Ultimately work best is going to be a riff on this with a bunch of FGC9 DNA Thrown in at least for the initial version.

Unfortunately, it's also the most ambitious so it's going to get built second. (I'll explain why it's the most ambitious after covering the first concept)

Concept 1 will be loosely based on this.

Concept 1 is going to take heavy cues from the almara MPA, using 3d printed Glock mags and essentially Mac/Uzi guts. The 3d printed mags are important for several reasons as first I need to get essentially a Glock mag Mac running, then work to alter the design to double stack double feed. Then it's onto making it run and feed 22 tcm.

Being utterly blunt here, a lot of why this step is happening is to build confidence and give me something to play around with before I start on the serious concept.

The idea behind basing v1 on the almara though is mostly about ease of getting parts I can alter and as a testbed there's lots of information out there for. 

I'll be working out non reciprocating charging and a "razorback" for mounting the optic on.

I'll then put together grips that attempt to replicate the pp-2000 grip angle (which appears to actually have a 3-5 degree forward cant) with the mag going in as seen in the pp2000 pictures which may mean feed lip and follower alterations to get a presentation angle I can work with.

Once I'm confident I have this part worked out I'll start essentially building an americanski pp2k with some alterations to make it work safely as a cheek pistol. This is why I put up the pictures of the earlier guns with the "push button" cocking arrangement, because you need to be able to wrap your support hand directly over where the production pp2k bolt carrier reciprocates.

The reason I picked the pp2k early version as sorta the ideal cheek pistol layout has to do with the several degree off vertical forward cant which should in theory make the cheek pistol shooting stance work better from an ergonomic and biomechanics standpoint.

I have a new dual extruder 3d printer coming that's compatible with petg and some higher end filaments out of the box along with mill and Lathe and what I need to bend flats plus enough access to mig arc and other welders to do the miscellaneous stuff I'll need to do.

It's not going to be a fast process between time money and the need to build some tools to make the end products along the way but it should be fun and rewarding.

Depending on how it goes you never know I could feel adventurous enough to eventually have my reloader buddy help me wildcat a 7mm Penna and or 7.92 vbr version once I get true double stack double feed printed 22 tcm versions working.

The "cheek pistol" concept and just small "machine pistols" (minus the FA of course) is the first gun thing I've found exciting, and within reach, in a few years now.

The thing you shouldn't expect is for this to turn into anything commercial beyond me maybe making some of the parts that aren't off the shelf for other builders. 

This is purely something I'm doing because it has caught my interests, I find it exciting, and I'm wanting to learn and explore concepts that there just isn't any commercially available guns or other parts available to use in the process.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

9/11/21

You'll definitely see reports Stan and I agree that it's kinda just all around a fun concept...

I don't know how much, if at all, you follow the gun 3d printing stuff but it has went from 0-60 faster than most people thought was possible. Let me introduce you to the FGC-9 if you haven't seen it yet.

This is the FGC-9 in all it's Glory and in many ways these are what really pushed me to starting my project. There are people making these fully from scratch right down to making the springs themselves and using 3d printed bath tub ECM rifling equipment to do the barrels.

As you can kinda see in the parts layout picture, the fgc-9 is more or less a pp-2000 with the bolt flipped the other direction.

It made me realize that rather than lamenting that nothing commercially available ticks all the boxes to make a good cheek pistol, I should just make my own damn cheek pistol that fits what I think would be best!

I had a really rough 5 year period that cost me my health and the majority of my tools etc and in some ways killed my enthusiasm for actually making things, but the cheek pistol concept came along and I realized that I could probably actually build something worthwhile if I just put a couple grand into tools and got to work.

And that's exactly what I'm doing. It's going to force me to make my own tools to make the gun which Ultimately benefits me too!

In the post above this I outlined my initial approach to gatnerd but you all can rest assured that I have a whole laundry list full of interesting gun ideas I've dug up over the years which will likely make appearances in various iterations of the two basic guns. I'll be documenting what I do and how I do it as this project gets rolling, and I'll definitely make sure you guys can follow along.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

9/11/21

"Have I ever told you you're my hero".kissing_heart

Glock mag MAC- doesn't Masterpiece Arms make one of those now?

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

9/11/21

At one point you realize Styer TMP is just about the smallest form factor you can get , and rigid side folder bunch better support than flimsy telescoping stock ,

While conventinal SBR like SIG Rattler are pushing close to  Mp7 size, the pistol like holsterable gun is preferable way to carry , but at 2kg MP7 ist a bit heavy for what is is. Folks have built full sized ultra light AR15s under that weight  

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

9/11/21

"Glock mag MAC- doesn't Masterpiece Arms make one of those now?"

They do indeed. Amusingly, their MAC barrels are all made on the same exact barrel tooling as their competition winning Precision Rifles. 

The result is these little Ghetto Blasters are shockingly accurate. I've got the MPA 5.7 MAC, its a 1" @ 25yd gun. 

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

9/11/21

They do, but they're almost $700 each.

Whereas I can likely find what I need for about $300 any of a couple places which basically boils down to a top cocker m11/9 parts kit or parts thereof and then "print a lower" similar to this but with a mag thru grip layout.

What I'm thinking of is a minimum 5.5" bbl with an OD and thread pitch etc compatible with an appropriate linear comp or modded "blast can" with a brake inside and constructed in such a way that I can swap out bottom assemblies relatively painlessly. (Likely an adventure all on it's own)

It's a good starting point and a safe launching pad to work from so that I can start changing things from a "known good" reference point, and frankly I can afford to break parts like this trying stuff. 

There's also metric shit tons of already known good 3d printable parts for something in this particular vein. The Mac upper probably isn't the most ideal starting point being a little large for the hand wrap stance of the cheek pistol when ideally you want an mp9/mp380/b&t usw size body.

There's lots of suboptimal things about the initial design including potentially even the fcg etc since we need this to have a decently usable trigger to work.

But there's enough room inside something like this to work and try things out.

Once I get internals and stuff sorted and everything working the way I want I'll finish one in the modified almara configuration I'm working on just to keep and to play with. 

I have lots of ideas for stuff to change and by the time I'm finished it probably won't be anything resembling the original gun and that's the fun part if you ask me.

I've been gathering up old George kellgren proposals and uziel gal stuff etc because I'm definitely not ashamed to copy something that works.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

9/11/21

Yup lol, I'm hoping I can find a masterpiece arms barrel to put in some of my initial monstrosities...

Sorta not looking forward to sourcing or doing my own 22 tcm barrel from a blank if it comes to that but oh man will the results be worth it if I can make something that works half decent!

I also have some interesting ideas on potential operating systems that'll have to wait until further in to try too...

Suffice it to say that I intend to leave less stones unturned by the end of this

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

9/11/21

Their MP 380 is also definitely an inspiration of mine along with some early kellgren guns.

I consider myself lucky In that respect because there's All kinds of phenomenal ideas that I just need to aggregate and put into a single gun.

Not as exciting or cool as designing something completely from scratch but still a task worth doing.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

12/11/21

My new 3d printer and some parts for my other machines arrive between this Friday and next. It'll probably be another 2 weeks to a month after that of assembly, debugging, and workup then the fun can really start.

If it's ok with you I'll just use this topic as my build log etc.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

12/11/21

That sounds great to me. 3D printing is a cool and emerging firearms tech, especially for rapid prototyping, so I think having members here printing gats would be well in keeping with the overall discussion of current and emerging small arms. Not to mention, just being cool as hell ;-)

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