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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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Interesting video on NATO PDW Trials   Small Arms <20mm

Started 5-Nov by nincomp; 4304 views.
Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

6-Nov

The Ballistics Radio program claimed, iirc, St. Louis SWAT fired a burst or two of 5.7 into a drug dealer from P90s. He supposedly said, "Please stop hurting me" after sitting down. He was said to have taken a dozen torso hits. Don't know how accurate that is, but that was their story.

EmericD

From: EmericD

6-Nov

gatnerd said:

Emeric, are you aware of any reports of how the 5.7x28 has performed in EU Law Enforcement applications? 

I don't have this kind of report.

All I know is that a Five seveN was used during the "Fort Hood Shootout" and (unfortunately) seems to have performed as designed, a police officer was downed with a shot in the thigh and in the knee, and several soldiers that tried to charge the shooter were dropped dead, or severely wounded, during their attempt.

smg762

From: smg762

6-Nov

One giat Pdw had 2 grips and 2 triggers....one for full auto.

HK also made a prototype handgun in 4.6....the P46

Also the UK tested the parker hale PDW....in 10mm and 224 boz

In reply toRe: msg 6
EmericD

From: EmericD

6-Nov

smg762 said:

One giat Pdw had 2 grips and 2 triggers....one for full auto.

Yes, that was the "ADR" (Arme de Défense Rapprochée).

A good example of "the French copy no one, and no one copy the French".

smg762 said:

Also the UK tested the parker hale PDW....in 10mm and 224 boz

Yes, because the .224 BOZ is based on the 10 mm auto case (not a necked-down 9x19 mm case, as said in the above video).

smg762

From: smg762

6-Nov

Does anyone have any reliable data on the 224 boz performance? 

Wiki says 690ft lbs in a 5 inch barrel, which i find hard to believe.

If one had 80k PSI could you maybe hit 800 or is the bore just too small

In reply toRe: msg 8
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

7-Nov

From reading of a decade ago on Five Seven Forum, I recall that .224 Boz produced incredible velocities, but for some reason also resulted in tremendous slide peening and overall wear. 
 

Later versions of the Boz attempted to use a more modest 9x19 sized case but seems to have gone nowhere. .22TCM is now the closest alternative.

It was intended for long/extended barrel handguns:

There are an extremely limited number of them made from STI guns with replaceable breachfaces:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/58741-224-boz/

A better option would have been a saboted 5.56 steel solid from the 10mm case. This would allow the projectile to be 100% penetrator, and since its a handgun/PDW, the reduced accuracy of using a Sabot would have (hopefully) been less of an issue then with rifle sabots. 

Liberty's 60gr 10mm does 2300fps+ from a 4.5" handgun, possibly 2400+ from a 6" G40. That gives some idea of what a saboted 10mm might be able to do, although the question would be what a 10mm sabot + steel solid projectile would weigh. 

That said, really 9x19 or 5.7x28 are better options. 

  • Edited 07 November 2021 3:51  by  gatnerd
roguetechie

From: roguetechie

8-Nov

Man all that to do what can be much more easily done with 7.92x24 VBR

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/7.92%C3%9724mm

The longer N bullets which fit in 45acp/10mm frames worked quite well just by using a 4-6mm hardened steel penetrator inside a non discarding brass "sabot" that comes apart on impact. 

The company behind 7.92 vbr has also developed and licensed to American ammo companies multiple very potent 5.7x28 rounds. 

Also because of the reduced diameter of the cartridge case you gain capacity rather than losing it which is always nice.

If you were to apply some of the more recent ammunition technology and tricks to something like the VBR line you could undoubtedly come up with something much more than satisfactory that doesn't have to force you into suboptimal weapon architecture choices too.

If you could get shellshock to make you some vbr "brass" that you load pretty hot (40-50k psi) you'd earn yourself a light pistol with hilariously light ammo that you can stuff 18-22 rounds into without much problem and just call it a day.

To me this seems like one of the better options for pistols because:

1. It doesn't require a bigger gun to make happen.

2. Done right, the somewhat lighter projectiles and etc won't beat up you or the gun as much.

3. You get enough velocity jump in a streamlined enough projectile package to guarantee expansion and consistent performance to the limits of the range you can teach most people to be passable with a pistol at.

4. Using metal mags you could have a g43 grip size with pretty serious capacity.

5. By having a g43 weight gun and 9x19 liberty civil defense weight ammo you're not dedicating excessive weight and bulk to your sidearm/edc. My g19 carries so much nicer with liberty ammo that I don't think the benefit here can be overstated.

I've acknowledged long ago that because this doesn't do anything wildly better (but has solid and worthwhile improvements across the board) that most people who don't carry a gun every day probably won't get it or see the value in it. But the value is there and with the things we do with our pistols now, there's not really any question that this would just plain do it better.

nincomp

From: nincomp

8-Nov

It sound like "mission creep" occurred fairly early in the project.  I started out as "replace the 9mm parabellum."  Before long, there was a desire for a weapon that would be effective against a certain level of body armor AND have an effective range of 200m.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

8-Nov

roguetechie said:

7.92x24 VBR

I had lusted after one of their Glock Conversions for years, but it never came to pass. 

Their controlled fracturing bullet seemed like a great design if it worked and could be made in Civilian legal copper/zinc:

Probably the 80/20 solution to 7.92 would be .30 Luger +P+, as Barsto now makes Glock barrels in .30 Luger. Then just find a ballistics nerd with a lathe to turn out some of those CF2 bullets. 

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

9-Nov

I am a nerd with a lathe. I need to do some things before im anywhere near good enough to make projectiles though.

I have more tools and etc coming in the next few weeks too specifically in order to start working on a "cheek pistol concept" (maybe two)

(Probably going have to be two.)

The idea is to get them running in 9x19 with printed Glock mags then 22 tcm and then open the mags up to double stack double feed or double stack 1.66 feed depending on how it goes. Additionally because of the geometry of the concept I personally see as the most valuable monkeying with presentation angle will probably be a large part of this.

I'm hoping to eventually get the various bits working to a degree where experimenting with something like a 7mm penna or 7.92 vbr is actually possible.

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