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Ukraine weapons thread   General Military Discussion

Started 24/2/22 by gatnerd; 186408 views.
graylion

From: graylion

18-Aug

The inanity of German policy is absolutely horrifying. If we seold them all the Leo1s they might have a chance. And that is important. What is happenign at the moment is a betrayal of everything we in the West supposedly stand for.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

18-Aug

How long do you think getting sizable numbers of leopard 1 ready for combat would take? I  imagine minimum 6 months to a year same for crew training. And Ukrainians would still have tanks that are probably worse than T72 clones they got from eastern Europe , most of which have somewhat modernized optronics at least a generation ahead of Leopard1, plus they know how to maintain those.  

Weapons supplies are barely trickling in. A self induced recesion is here in most of the western economies and winter is around the corner Ukraine can only expect much less from Europe in the upcoming months. Old surplus depos are mostly emptied of the ex-soviet gear useful to Ukrainians ,( for example there is hardly any ammo for all their soviet era artillery, so they are now increasingly limited to much smaller numbers of NATO standard artillery. 

Although mud season will slow the logistics in a month or two, i dont think i will matter much considering how little front lines are moving per day and mud season cuts both ways.

*title is a bit misleading but it gets the gist of it. You can tell that European $$ or lack there off are more or less directly tied to any Ukrainian success on the battlefield in absence of anything that looks like winning except the Euro$$ support to continue to drop. 

For the first time, Ukraine’s western partners sent no new aid in July

By Ben Aris in Berlin August 18, 2022
The flow of new international support for Ukraine “dried up” completely in July, according to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy, which has been tracking donations. There were no new promises of any sort of aid from any of the large EU members like Germany, France or Italy, the institute said in its latest release on August 18.

“The newest update of the Ukraine Support Tracker (July 2 to August 3) shows that in July, Ukraine received only around €1.5bn in new pledges of support. In total, the tracker now records commitments of €84.2 billion,” said Christoph Trebesch, head of the team that compiles the Ukraine Support Tracker. “In July, donor countries initiated almost no new aid, but they did deliver some of the already committed support such as weapon systems.”

Germany, for example, has not announced any further military support, although it did send considerable military aid that was committed earlier.

This is the first month since the war started just over six months ago that Ukraine has received no new pledges of help, either military or financial.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

19-Aug

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

How long do you think getting sizable numbers of leopard 1 ready for combat would take? I imagine minimum 6 months to a year same for crew training.

Its propably doable to get a batallion up to a brigade worth of Leo 1 ready within six month. If there is eough effort put into it. Crew training is less problematic. It can be done in parallel.

To what standard these Leo 1 would be upgraded is unclear. The baseline Leo 1A5, the last version the BW used has the same fire controll and optics as the Leopard 2 A4 did. Actually a little better. Its sort of a M60A3 and M1 situation. The Leo 1 A6 which had been developed but not introduced in service increased protection and rearmed the Leo 1 with a 120 mm L44 gun. All Leo 1 A5 can be rearmed this way. The vehicles had been prepared for this.
My guess is they would use new Optics and FCS as drop in OTS solution. Makes little sense to restart production of old equipment. Maybe the Ukrainians even mount ERA on them. There are several options really.

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

A self induced recesion is here in most of the western economies and winter is around the corner Ukraine can only expect much less from Europe in the upcoming months

This was to be expected. The intrest in the war vanes. Other things now make the headlines. The situation on the frontline has become rather static.
But there really is no recession and certainly not self induces. The German economy is booming. There is more demand than production capacity. Especially the shortages caused by the global supply chain interuption by China is problematic. This is not a long term problem tough. The gas supply for the German industry is mostly secure now. This problem is solved. The big thing here in Germany currently is the drough and heat waves. But there is nothing that can be done. We will have to sit this one out. Autum will come and with it rain and cooler weather.

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

For the first time, Ukraine’s western partners sent no new aid in July

This is misleading. For the first time no new help programs have been initiated. The ones allready running are just that. Still running. Once these are fullfilled and the need for more is clear and it can be assesed what is needed more will come.

A lot is currently happening at low key and quietly.

Germany for example is in the process to provide UA with Vulcano ammo of the PzH 2000. Didn't really make the news but this is really amazing. The stuff is brand new and has not yet been introduced in the German Army. This is scheduled for completion in 2025. The first batches now all go to UA.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

19-Aug

If you are talking about upgrading Leo1 you are talking years , not months till delivery. 6months to a year is just getting the stuff from a scrap heap rebuilt to combat ready stage

255 rounds possibly years down the line. That is not about supporting Ukraine but really only about testing stuff in Ukraine.

https://soldat-und-technik.de/2022/08/bewaffnung/32586/praezisionsgelenkte-vulcano-artilleriemunition/?fbclid=IwAR2fL0-fC9c_BmSbjplxIKdamRQ4bIUvLtUNIlfJuLoA5SYlCj7dGt6WIF4

Meanwhile scraping the bottom of the barrel with these Bulgarian arms purchased for 200mio Eur trough Romanian middle man.

https://defapt.ro/romarm-rachete-ruginite-belaruse-pentru-ucraina/

https://youtu.be/lapwifXVgLw

stuff that then blows up on you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKDKcJJdQkw

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

19-Aug

The Leo 1 would be needed to be upraded to some degree anyways. Its not like they are standing around, fully equiped just needing a new paint job. The electronics and optics need to be replaced or better reinstalled anyways. It is very unlikely that legacy optics and electronics would be reproduced for this. They will just install the currently available equipment. Which means an upgrade.

Yes UA will get ~250 Vulcano shells... which means all that are exsiting. 250 direct hits at 70 km is an awefull lot. And indefinetly more than none at all. I have no idea what you expect. Stuff that doesn't exist can not be delivered. The Vulcano stells will be delivered this year or next. If more are sent if needed when they become available remains to be seen.

The same is true for other weapon systems and munitions. If its not there it can't be delivered. Stocks are empty. Its that simple. There is allmost nothing left. Restarting production or ramping it up is easier said than done and takes time. Concidering the current state of the war it seems UA now has time while Russia is running out of it. So the deliveries so far achieved their goal. Prevent the collapse of UA. Now serious mid and long term planing can begin.

graylion

From: graylion

21-Aug

I really wish the SPD would grow a pair :(

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

21-Aug

graylion said:

I really wish the SPD would grow a pair :(

Well, if you ask me, I would have preferred if they would not have been elected in the first place. Allthough Laschet also isn't a top choice. This way the CDU at least can reorganise itself and find a way back to its roots. Which will increase the chances they will be elected next time and somthing will be done right after that.

The SPD IMHO is a lost cause. They will never grow a pair. Even currently they are pushed by the Greens, who supprisingly grew a very large pair, and the Liberals. In addition to the immense pressure from other EU countries and the US. I really think without this the SPD wouldn't have acted on the Russian invasion at all.

graylion

From: graylion

21-Aug

Being an old SPD member I hate to agree with you. But it had its day. The Greens are the future.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

21-Aug

graylion said:

The Greens are the future.

This thought is outright scary!

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