schnuersi said:

The circumstances don't matter.

They do afterwards. Otherwise the entire world would be sanctioning the US for their sins in Vietnam, A-stan, Iraq, Libya, etc etc

schnuersi said:

It is dumb to argue if in the line "all go this way, they must be wrong because I want the other way"

are you arguing that the majority is always right and standing against it is always wrong?

WTAF?

I still want justice for my countrymen on MH17, murdered by Russian cunts when they shot down (another) airliner. As far as I’m concerned, the Ukraine can stop their counteroffensive at Vladivostok.

as for the Donbass, the Ukraine began indiscriminately killing* the "separatists" by shelling and bombing cities and villages from the day they** decided to separate

*by returning fire at invading Russian troops.

**“they” being the Russian army cosplaying as “homegrown separatist militia heroes”.

??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ? ???, ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? ?????.

Ukraine ought to have given up her nuclear capability by expending it on Moscow.

DavidPawley said:

murdered by Russian cunts when they shot down (another) airliner.

well, Ukrainian air forces have a history of 1) shooting down airliners (as well as agricultural tractors) with obsolescent SAMs that went wild and 2) denying their own acts

Oh yeah, which airliners?

DavidPawley said:

Ukraine ought to have given up her nuclear capability by expending it on Moscow.

First, Ukraine never had any control over nuclear weapons positioned there, they all were controlled from Moscow. So, literally, they never held the "red button". Same as Germans do not have any control over American nuclear weapons stationed there.

Second, had they kept the useless nukes, they'd sold most of the to the highest bidder by the 2010 the latest, same way they did with remaining cruise missiles and lots of missile tech from their Yuzhnoe design bureau. So I guess in that case US or EU or both would have steamrolled it by that time as well.

DavidPawley said:

by returning fire at invading Russian troops.

So, the air strike against the administrative building in the center of Lugansk on June 2nd, 2014, which killed 8 and wounded 28 civilians, was "returning fire on Russian troops"?

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-unspun-luhansk-blast/25410384.html

DavidPawley said:

Oh yeah, which airliners?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

The accident resulted from combat-missile launches during joint Ukrainian-Russian military air-defence exercises.^[3] The exercises were held at the Russian-controlled training ground of the 31st Russian Black Sea Fleet Research center on Cape Opuk near the city of Kerch in Crimea. Ukraine eventually admitted that it might have caused the crash, probably by an errant S-200 missile fired by its armed forces.^[4] Ukraine paid $15 million to surviving family members of the 78 victims ($200,000 per victim).^[5][6]
 

Russian officials dismissed the American claim as "unworthy of attention,"^[16] and Russian president Vladimir Putin told the press the next day that "the weapons used in those exercises had such characteristics that make it impossible for them to reach the air corridor through which the plane was moving."^[16]

^{So what was your point again? That UKR paid compensation and RUS lied about the events?}

^{Patton was right.}

“Ukraine never had any control over nuclear weapons positioned there, they all were controlled from Moscow.”
 

So that means that the security guarantee by Russia in exchange for surrendering the nukes was not legitimate? Oh, okay then, the Russians are allowed to invade then, see, they aren’t breaking any promises!

“the air strike against the administrative building in the center of Lugansk on June 2nd, 2014, which killed 8 and wounded 28 civilians, was "returning fire on Russian troops"?”

Yes.

My point was that UKR denied (and still officially denies) its guilt and paid compensations only after significant pressure from Israel

They also actively denied that it was their own errant SA missile that killed two unlucky Polish farmers several days ago, despite the obvious facts

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63656664