gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3360
    MEMBERS
  • 191213
    MESSAGES
  • 4
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

Ukraine weapons thread   General Military Discussion

Started 24/2/22 by gatnerd; 186562 views.
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27/4/22

Comical yet proven on the battlefield:

Ukrainian Special Operations Forces fire a UTV-mounted 9M111 Fagot ATGM at Russian targets

Ukrainian Special Operations Forces fire a UTV-mounted 9M111 Fagot anti-tank guided missile system at Russian targets#StandWithUkraine? #StopRussia #ArmUkrai...

I've seen multiple versions of this basic setup.

Vehicle is the surprisingly capable Polaris cart, which are tailor made for off road use and can haul 500lbs of stuff in the back, and capable of ~50mph on paved roads, and gets ~25mpg. Its also narrow enough to travel along narrower trails then a conventional vehicle. 

https://ranger.polaris.com/en-us/ranger-xp-1000/

Its a similar concept to the 'Desert Patrol Vehicle' dune buggy previously used by US SF:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Patrol_Vehicle

And US SF and Marines are also looking into larger polaris cart-jeep hybrids for themselves, although as transport rather then tank destroyers:

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/12/22/marine-corps-tactical-dune-buggy-getting-bunch-new-upgrades.html

  • Edited 27 April 2022 2:09  by  gatnerd
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27/4/22

gatnerd said:

Whats the general condition / effectiveness of those? Wiki says they were phased out in 2010.

They have been phased out in 2010. Allthough for budget reasons. Not because the system was not effective or not usefull. The current condition is ok-ish. Not great but they can be refurbished quickly.

gatnerd said:

And can they fire the newer 'AHEAD' rounds, or mostly just the APDS frangible loads?

To my knowledge they currently can't. This upgrade among others was discussed befor the phase out but not implemented because of it. Especially against helicopters the FAPDS is very effective. I guess not so much against small drones.

Back in the day we often trained with Gepard units. Several times I have seen them on a shooting range. They system is pretty impressive. To my knowledge it was never used in combat befor so we will have to wait and see how it works out.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27/4/22

BruhMomento said:

golf carts with anti tank??? this is comical

Every solution that compensates for the shortcomings of a system without compromising its strength is a good one.
The shortcoming of an ATGM system is mobility. Its strength is small size. So the smallest vehicle that can give it the required mobility is the best solution.

The German Wiesel ATGM carrier basically is a golf cart with tracks. Its also a bit more durable with very light protection but its of the same size.

Such simple ATGM carriers are also dirt cheap.

The downside is they are still highly suceptible to autocannon and artillery fire.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27/4/22

schnuersi said:

To my knowledge it was never used in combat befor so we will have to wait and see how it works out.

That will be exciting to see how it works then, given how long it has been in service.

Its a super cool looking vehicle.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27/4/22

Since both Ukraine and Russia are making extensive use of 30x165mm ACs on their various IFVs, a look at x165 ammo and its effects:

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/p/30x165mm-cartridges.html

Really fantastic look at the shells and their performance; a few random grabs from the website. I'm always delighted when I stumble across an obscure blog thats rich in info. 

Time of flight:

Wall penetration:

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27/4/22

schnuersi said:

The German Wiesel ATGM carrier basically is a golf cart with tracks. Its also a bit more durable with very light protection but its of the same size. Such simple ATGM carriers are also dirt cheap.

That thing is adorably badass:

The Polaris are I think a great option for a modern version of the concept:

-Polaris widely used by civilians, with a proven track record for reliability and both spare and aftermarket parts

-Polaris currently used by US military 

-Vehicle is less then 1 ton, cheap, and capable off road

Their big brother, the 4 seat Polaris MRZR, is being used by US SF as a Javelin carrier / desert Jeep:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/75uiof/us_socom_polaris_mrzr_light_tactical_vehicles/

I think a small country could do a hell of lot worse then having a bunch of ATGM tactical golf carts. 

Theres also a snow version in use by the Italians:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/q6ufrk/italiani_alpini_troops_using_a_special_polaris/

  • Edited 27 April 2022 5:33  by  gatnerd
BruhMomento

From: BruhMomento

27/4/22

Interesting. Thanks for the info man!

graylion

From: graylion

27/4/22

schnuersi said:

Germany is supplying logistics vehicles to Ukraine for some time allready. No specifics though.

https://defence-blog.com/germany-to-supply-the-ukrainian-army-with-heavy-tank-transporter-vehicles/

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27/4/22

gatnerd said:

That will be exciting to see how it works then, given how long it has been in service.

Indeed. Allthough the FCS and its programming have been updated several times over the years.
Against helicopters and the occational low flying aitcraft it should work fine. It will propably fail against drones.

The russian pilots also have no real experience against this system. Its seems they are not truely acustomed to operate in a contested airspace against serious AD.

We will have to wait and see.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27/4/22

gatnerd said:

That thing is adorably badass:

Yes and they are currently in a refurbishment program. All will be upgraded and rebuild. TOW is being pgased out and the Wisels will be armed with MELLS/Spike.

A scucessor is also in developement. We will see to what this leads. The current prototype is... well... lets say: "special". Armament is also a problem.

TOP