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Lynx as a platform   General Army topics

Started 4/4/22 by graylion; 8222 views.
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

25-Jul

I can imagine cost was a major factor, ,Slovak tender where CV90 also won supposedly had the following bids. 

One of the remarks vs the unmanned turret was that it can't be operated without power while a maned one can still be operated and fired under manual power? *Altough i would imagine Puma turret with glass optical channels could probably be operated manually if someone ordered it as such.

  152 vehicles,  110 infantry fighting vehicles, 15 command vehicles, 9 reconnaissance vehicles, 3 armored personnel carriers, 9 self-propelled 120-mm mortars, 3 engineering vehicles , 3 ARVs

CV9030 Mk IV 1,669,093,939 €
CV9035 MK IV 1,688,845,030 €
ASCOD 1,724,882,231 €
KF41 Lynx 1,854,089,739 €

Total procurement costs of the offered vehicles including VAT and infrastructure costs

* we are paying more for Boxer through OCCAR than either Czech or Slovak CV90MK4 cost

https://below-the-turret-ring.com/armored-vehicles/slovakia-announces-the-cv90-mk-iv-as-its-preferred-ifv/

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

25-Jul

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

One of the remarks vs the unmanned turret was that it can't be operated without power while a maned one can still be operated and fired under manual power? *Altough i would imagine Puma turret with glass optical channels could probably be operated manually if someone ordered it as such.

Extremly unlikely. It at the very least would require a major redesign.
Basically no modern all electric turret can be operated without power. Usually if redundancy behond the engine, APU and on bord power storage is required the solution is to add additional storage.
Operating the turret manually is de facto an outdated concept. Even if it is possible power loss is a mission kill and demands immediate disengage and fall back.

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

I can imagine cost was a major factor

Usually it allmost the only factor that counts. Neither the Slovaks nor the Czech really bothere testing. They just read trough the documentation and compared them. The entire Slovak test program of the provided test vehicles took them five days. The Czech have not been much better. Under this condition a sensible comparison of technical details isn't possible. Which means the decision can only be made based on numbers on paper.

RovingPedant

From: RovingPedant

25-Jul

Mr. T (MrT4) said...

* we are paying more for Boxer through OCCAR than either Czech or Slovak CV90MK4 cost

Are we? Looks like the numbers there are about £10m per vehicle but I thought that the UK Boxer buy was £5m per vehicle.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

25-Jul

Not quite but getting there it started at 5.6 million in 2018 now it's north of 8.6mio and the number just keeps climbing and i reckon before it is actually all over , it will be north of 10mio Eur a piece .

Its a purely political buy, no trials, no competition, no tender just uncompetitive order at OCCAR and it seems it comes a water-tight legal immunity for OCCAR over any possible wrongdoing, funny enough same folk who now ordered Boxer were previously involved with Patria AMV shenanigans where millions in bribes were paid, but in that deal, we were buying 136 vehicles for 263mio, now we are getting 45 for near 390mio Eur , cost is artificially being kept lower than it will actually be in the end as some of the armaments and all the coms are now in removed from the contract price meaning they will make an annex somewhere down the line. The original contract before the ''creative cost cutting'' was 412 mio Eur for 45 boxers, now suddenly specs dropped the coms all together (this alone will be multimillion item), night lighting , tow hook, heated fuel tanks, heat masking of the engine compartment and air inlet and exhaust, commander's hatch with periscopes, laser irradiation sensing system,  and some of the previously 30mm armed boxers got 12.7mm RWS instead.  A hefty price for a 8x8 APC  pretending to be an IFV

We have seen similar shenanigans with Partia AMV  at one stage creative cost cutting hit the order and suddenly 30mm canon and turreted mortars all disappeared from the order , as Elbit RWS turned out to absolute turds unable to hit jack shit and prone to freezing up so much more expensive Kongsbers RWS ate away the armament budget 

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

26-Jul

Thiy sounds more like a case of horrible project management driving cost to extreme levels than the manufacturer charging an extreme prime.   

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

26-Jul

It probably is , but the funny thing is we are basically ordering same specs as the Latvian Boxers so a relatively developed model . But from what i have heard OCCAR is coming up with ever increasing price tags on their own as the time goes by(2018-2022), the creative cost cutting is just a consequence of low public support for OCCAR Boxer purchase.

At the same time German government has actually threatened consequences publicly if we were to walk away from Boxer which we should. I would be walking away as fast as my legs carry me. fuck OCCAR . And seeing the inabailty of OCCAR to actualy produce shit  , no wonder Poles are shopping in Korea as Geman armored vehicle industry is an absolute joke , lots of shiny toys to show off but no real capacity to actually make them in any number. 

It also makes no sense for us to purchase Boxer in the first place, If we commited to Patria AMW ,fill the missing quota with those from Poland and be done with the shit show. But no we somehow went from relatively low cost AMV (XL) to the most expensive 8x8 on the market which our military only ever saw in a brochure.And now we will have 2 different types that are still just an 8x8 apc ,

As for project management, OCCAR charges a 19mio eur development and managment fee. I suspect there are lots of cushy jobs and side gigs inside and around OCCAR consortium as its otherwise just inexplicable to be joining the OCCAR  for any practical reason.

Particulary now that it seems all 8x8 mechanized force that ditched tanks and IFVs for 8x8 is an outdated concept that was only ever suited for low end insurgency in the third world. Especially when you are buying 8x8 APCs that are pushing ever closer to IFV costs

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

26-Jul

My knowledge of the details of thiy program is very limited.

But what I know from the defense industry in general is that the price scales with reliability of the customer. The developement and other fees scale with the likelyhood of the customer canceling. This way they try to minimise losses or even make a profit regardless if the deal evaporates.

Since the UK have a pretty bad reputation as defense customer its not supprising that they are charged a premium. The UK is not alone in this. The German government also has to pay for their past mistakes.

The German defense industry can produce. They are running at full capacity... Just not for the UK (or Germany). The last big orders came from other countries and the orders are worked off one after the other. This also is a significant problem for the 100 billion program here. Since the industry will not increase capacity or hire more workers without binding assurance that there will be long term demand. Without this they will work the orders off one after the other so they get a mid and long term perspective.

Several European governments left so much scorched earth in the defense sector they won't be trusted anymore.

RovingPedant

From: RovingPedant

26-Jul

I think I got confused with who "we" was. You're Slovenian?

The UK Boxers are running at £5m apiece but that is without any turreted armament. Unless you count a .50 cal on a RWS.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

26-Jul

Indeed we (Slovenians) are the most unreliable buyer , when the government changes so do business deals , Boxer is on the chopping block as the government in Leaving signed the deal mere days before it was voted out , they also signed a deal for C-27 Spartan that is also now facing scrutiny. 

Ours are much more expensive i suspect because of heavy armament and very small numbers, they are to be armed with 30mm cannon and Spike anti-tank missiles . They are meant for a medium battalion group as a quasi IFV 

RovingPedant

From: RovingPedant

26-Jul

Across a number of new procurements across Europe €5m seems to be the price of a new turret, while €10m is a complete vehicle.

The medium battalion group sounds a bit like the "Strike" formation that the British Army were proposing a little while back, except the Slovenian version sounds like it has appropriate firepower.

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