Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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Lynx as a platform   General Army topics

Started 4/4/22 by graylion; 8235 views.

From: schnuersi


Mr. T (MrT4) said:

at a total weight increase of only two tons''

It doesn't provide full coverage and does nothing to improve blast protection. But yes it is possible to increase protection for modest weight. Again its about the compromises you make.

I mentioned armor as one example. The entire mil spec problematic is far more complex and hard to understand without significan background or explaining. An off the shelf truck engine is not the same as a mil spec engine. Not even close.
This doesn't mean a truck engine can not propel a military vehicle but it means it will cease to function where a mil spec engine doesn't. This costs money. Quite significant amounts.
Same with NBC protection. Sealing a vehicle that has not right from the start been designed to be gas tight is difficult and expensive. A NBC air supply and filter system is not just an AC with an additional fiter in front. Again the details matter. A lot.

Why does the US military use HUMVEEs or the German military mil spec G wagons (which are not the same as the civillian ones)? Especially nowadays. The HUMVEE is a more than 30 years old design. The G wagon is even older. Toyota (or any other manufacturer) would be delighted to deliver Hilux to replace them. For a fraction of the cost. The answer is: because even the most modern Hilux does not fullfill the requirements a HUMVEE or mil spec G wagon does. Actually chances are a 30 years old Hilux would be closer to do it.
The German military encountered massive problems  with their COTS vehicle solutions in Afghanistan and Mali. The mil spec vehicles did not have these. These problem where not specific German but of technical nature. I know from other nations that there have been similar problems for them as well. It is possible to get good equipment for low price. But chances are if push comes to shove you will have to pay then. If you are unlucky not in money or resources but in lives.

I used to be super critical of the Boxer in the past too. But I changed my mind. It works. Actually it works great. Its super reliable (after some experiences in Afghanistan resulted in modifications). The mobility is really good (for a wheeled vehicle). The protection level is awesome and this alone is worth the prictag. Its a great piece of kit. Its well liked by the users who also have lots of confidence in the vehicle. Its the gold standard as far as I can tell. If it costs acodingly that is fine for me. Same will be true for the new 6x6.

  • Edited 11 August 2022 12:38  by  schnuersi

From: Farmplinker


It is annoying to try to explain to people, "No, the civilian version isn't as good as the military version".  They don't grasp that they don't know what truly bad roads are like, that you just can't call up a wrecker in most of the world, and parts have different longevity under different conditions.

In reply toRe: msg 59
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)


It seems we will again be along for the ride , bought the same config as the Lithuanians, Previous generations of Israeli turrets couldn't hit the broad side of the barn on our Patria AMVs so had to be replaced with much more expenisve  Kongsberg and puff gone were the 30mm cannons instead replacement turrets had 12.7mm or 40mm grenade launcher.

What's really going on with Boxer: We bought Wolves and got the cat in the bag and we can do it again

"The platform itself is proven and of high quality, we have a legacy contract, when an Israeli-made turret is added to the German platform, the integration work is a bit stuck or delayed. It works: anti-tank Spike systems, machine gun, 30-millimeter cannon shoot well," said the deputy minister.

"I wouldn't call it a bug, it's a development problem. (...) I would not like to reveal the details, but these are also software improvements, we have now installed another version, and challenges related to the integration of the tower into the roadway," added V. Semeška.

It is still very popular to use the word "challenges" - it is said that everything is solved and will be solved. KMW's sales director for Eastern Europe, Thomas Fritzsch, also half-jokingly slyly suggested the word "challenges" when asked by Delphi about the Boxer's problems.

However, the details were not hidden. The essence of the problems is clear: the previously non-existent "Vilko" variant - the Samson II turret and its integration into the "Boxer" were unknown to the Germans at that time. And the contents of the problems began to creep in little by little, and there were three main ones: ammunition feeding, gun misalignment and autofocus. The "Wolf" would have the ability to fire a full set of 30 mm ammunition - 200 pieces. without jamming or redoing after the commander got out, but at the 150 ammo mark trouble started.

Then the software problems were revealed. The deviation of the gun horizontally to one side means additional calibration, and if the autofocus is not focused on the target, but on the gas from the barrel, the commander again faces aiming problems.

All of this requires testing, testing, and some more testing and tuning. And not in a stationary, factory, where everything can be theoretically calibrated, but in a real combat firing range that meets the conditions of battle. The more the better, as some problems only become apparent after a while. Apparently, it's not a problem - in Germany there are excellent ranges for testing, shooting, pressing everything possible. But as soon as the first problems of "Wolves" appeared, the COVID-19 pandemic hit and, of course, everything stopped: Israel closed down, introduced perhaps the strictest isolation rules, which meant that Rafael's representatives could not go to Germany to explain the problems and find a solution .

But placing all the blame on the pandemic would be unfair. "If the ammunition doesn't work, it's not a covid problem, it's a solution problem." You can't solve it, that is, fix the supply of ammunition during the Zoom meeting," said Th. Fritzsch. The fact that the Israeli turret does not work together with the Boxer as it should is not a big surprise in itself - Lithuania itself chose a cheaper, but untested module, although Artec offered the RCT-30 remote-controlled turret.

Countries with more modest financial possibilities, such as Lithuania, try to avoid such R&D costs. It doesn't always work out. For example, the Piranha 5 armored personnel carrier with the Israeli ELBIT turret purchased by Romania is also delayed - similar problems to the Lithuanian ones.


From: schnuersi


That reads like there is a classical system integrations problem. Which doesn't seem to be Boxer specific.

In Germany we have a saying that translates to: "if you buy cheap, you buy twice". There is also a tounge in cheek joke in "corporate Germany" which goes: "We need to save money! At any cost!"
It seems from the information presented both fully apply to this case as well.

In reply toRe: msg 61
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)


Yes its same here , but its also a point when politicians buy stuff countries really can't afford, then its just the race to the bottom cutting costs .so when you want to buy a 8x8 with a 30mm canon and ATGMs in the turret , is it better to buy a boxer with no turret at all or an AMV fully kited out? Plans on paper always called for heavily armed 8x8 and budget reality delivers basic 8x8 with 12.7mm , that is why boxer choice was such a surprise over here. Only other posibilty is a broad industrial cooperation offer inclusive with a Boxer outweighed the cost, as we are already seeing our local companies like Valhalla turrets working on German projects.  In the past the high 'offset' percentages turned out as absolute duds in procurment, manufacturers incorporated the costs of offsets into the pricing and offsets often failed to materialize in full .

Our military has been buying Israeli stuff for past 30 years and aside from the boats that seem to be working well, we had all sorts of problems with the Israeli gear, they are always the cheap offer in the mix,out but often take years to work out kinks , while Israelis use the opportunity to develop their products on our dime.

By the way, anyone in the know why french VBCI is practically absent on the market, i haven't seen them in any recent tenders.?


From: schnuersi


Mr. T (MrT4) said:

By the way, anyone in the know why french VBCI is practically absent on the market, i haven't seen them in any recent tenders.?

Two main reasons. As far as I can tell.
The VBCI was tailored to meet the specific needs of the French Army. Its the 8x8 counterpart to the German Puma IFV in this regard.

Second: The French industry is notoriously difficult to work with. Or at the very least they can be.

Which one is more important I can't tell. But the combination certainly does not help.


From: SiverSurfeR


Case in point the Qatari $2b contract fiasco. The Rafale purchase went somehow better.