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Tracks vs Wheels   General Army topics

Started 26/5/22 by graylion; 21164 views.
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

22/6/22

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

In Boxer they claim parasitic mass is just 300-400kg or less than 1% but that is somewhat hard to believe or better its questionable how they quantify it , by counting just overlaping structures or actually volumetric growth oven unibody vehicle

Since you claim its not correct and make accusations the burden of proof is on you. So proof your claim.

Everybody else seems fine with the numbers.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

22/6/22

graylion said:

How the *bleep* does the boxer not have space for a 14 man section?

Which modern AFV with comparable protection does?
Who uses 14 man sections anyways?

With modern ergonomics, HSE rules and blast protection a vehicle for 14 passengers would end up being a bus. The Boxer is pretty packed with 8 passengers.

graylion

From: graylion

22/6/22

I was being mildly facetious. I was looking at some of the smaller eight-wheelers, which presumably also have 8 passengers and wondered...

Do I remember reading something that the K-21 was not designed for big Westerners?

Red7272

From: Red7272

29/6/22

I love this conversation but there is need to pick out the various doctrines. 

IFVs are meant to go wherever tanks can, take the same hits and carry a small infantry squad expressly to fulfill the role of supporting the tanks. The ideal is that the troops fight mounts and are as effective mounted as dismounted (theoretically). Basically the Marder and Lynx are it. The Warrior slides in just with it's upgraded armour package but lacks the means for fighting mounted.   

MICVs are vehicles like the Bradley, BMPCV 90/30 and VIBC that can operate in support of their infantry and are more capable than APCs. They do operate in the same role as IFVs but are not doctrinally IFVs because of their lack of armour. 

In reality pretty much everybody makes do and really only the Germans ever took the IFV route seriously. They aren't wrong but it has a prohibitive cost in the size, complexity and price of the IFV. 

graylion

From: graylion

29/6/22

Thanks for clearing that up!

17thfabn

From: 17thfabn

29/6/22

Red7272 said:

Red7272 

"IFVs are meant to go wherever tanks can, take the same hits and carry a small infantry squad expressly to fulfill the role of supporting the tanks. The ideal is that the troops fight mounts and are as effective mounted as dismounted (theoretically). Basically the Marder and Lynx are it. The Warrior slides in just with it's upgraded armour package but lacks the means for fighting mounted.  "

Neither in the Marder or Lynx can the infantry men carried inside fight. The Marder originally had firing ports and a remote controlled machine gun, but they were taken away in the upgrades. 

The Marder level of armor protection is not on the level of a tank, it cannot take a hit a tank can take.

The Lynx's level of protection is scalable.  At its base level it has about as much protection as many other IFV.  Additional levels of protection can be added. 

Red7272

From: Red7272

29/6/22

17thfabn said:

Neither in the Marder or Lynx can the infantry men carried inside fight. The Marder originally had firing ports and a remote controlled machine gun, but they were taken away in the upgrades.  The Marder level of armor protection is not on the level of a tank, it cannot take a hit a tank can take.

When this doctrine was created the tank was the leopard 1. Firing ports were eventually realised to be pretty much useless and compromised the vehicle's protection. Now the only distinction is the heavier protection and smaller infantry squad (allowing a more heavily armoured vehicle).

17thfabn said:

The Lynx's level of protection is scalable.  At its base level it has about as much protection as many other IFV.  Additional levels of protection can be added. 

More to do with being air transportable and reducing wear when not being deployed, rather than the armour being particularly effective.

This is an old doctrine now and pretty much the only adherents are the Germans and people like Richard Simpkin  who wrote about it in the 70s and 80s. 

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

29/6/22

Red7272 said:

IFVs are meant to go wherever tanks can, take the same hits

Go there yes take the same hits no. IFV are duelling capable against their counterparts. Not against MBTs.

Red7272 said:

The Warrior slides in just with it's upgraded armour package but lacks the means for fighting mounted.

No the Warrior has this capability as well. It has hatches over the troop compartment as does the Marder and Lynx.

Red7272 said:

MICVs are vehicles like the Bradley, BMPCV 90/30 and VIBC that can operate in support of their infantry and are more capable than APCs. They do operate in the same role as IFVs but are not doctrinally IFVs because of their lack of armour.

The BMP and the Soviet doctrine is different again. The BMP is supposed to get an infantry squad close to their objective or onto it. Once this is done the BMPs seperate from the infantry and form a distinct unit. Effectively they become tank destroyers. They are less supposed to support the infantry but more to operate on their own to stop counterattacks. This is the BMP1. It was later modified to a more supportive role and hence the BMP2. But there still is the bronegruppa. Which now operates more like a unit of light tanks. The funtion of getting the infantry onto their objective included to allow the to cross NBC contaminated terrain. As well as to push trough artillery and mortar fire. The firing ports of the vehicle are mostly to allow the passengers to fight under NBC conditions without dismounting. The BMP3 is the culminating point of this. Its basically a true light tank that can also transport troops. It also carries additional weapons for the passengers. This doctrine was later in practice found to be not what needed and the vehicles pressed into a different use showed weaknesses and a lack of flexibility.

Red7272 said:

They aren't wrong but it has a prohibitive cost in the size, complexity and price of the IFV.

The IFV, MICV and later Soviet designs of other nations are not cheaper than the Marder.
The Puma is problematic not becaus of its size but because the lack of it. Which is really quite ironic. The main design requirements for the Puma has been that it should fit into the A400M. During the developement process the two projects A400M and Puma have been linked one to the other to justify the ressources for the one with the other. This resulted in strict weight and size limitiations. Which plagued the program and really are the source for all the problems and the high cost. In addition the resulting product is so specualised that nobody else would ever want to buy it. Its export chances are zero. Hence Lynx.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

29/6/22

Red7272 said:

"17thfabn said: Neither in the Marder or Lynx can the infantry men carried inside fight. The Marder originally had firing ports and a remote controlled machine gun, but they were taken away in the upgrades. The Marder level of armor protection is not on the level of a tank, it cannot take a hit a tank can take."

When this doctrine was created the tank was the leopard 1. Firing ports were eventually realised to be pretty much useless and compromised the vehicle's protection.

Its a bit more complex.
The firing ports came from the idea to allow the passengers to fight while fully protected. Especially against splinters and shrapnell. Later NBC protection was added.
It was obvious very early that the effective range would be short and most for supression purposes. Which was not a problem as long as the effective ranges of hand held AT weapons where low.
The firing ports of the Marder did not accept rifles for example. Only SMGs. The main weapon was the MG in the overhead weapon mount. Which did work. But it had conciderable drawbacks. The operator was pretty much in the way of his mates during mounting and dismounting. Since he was part of the dismounts and not the vehicle crew the window of oportunity to use the weapon was limited. As was its arc of fire. It could only shoot to the rear and sides not to the front.
The MG mount was removed first and the firing ports retained.
This changed in version A3. Which appeared in the late '80 as the reaction to the BMP2. The protection level of the Marder was increased to protect from 30 mm AC fire. Duelling capable against its kin. Also the seating was changed and the entire ionterior reorganised. Which meant the firing ports had to go.
The Infantry squad size stayed the same since the Marder A1 which introduced the Milan ATGM. Which simply took the place of the seventh dismount. So the infantry squad size has nothing to do with protection but with arament.
The actual squad size is nine men BTW. The three vehicle crew in their IFV and the dismounts are ONE SQUAD. A Grenadier platoon has three squads. Each nine men, three crew and six dismounts and an IFV. These are seen as one combat element. They even share a callsign. The dismounts only modify it with "ab". First plattoon secon vehicle is Alpha 2. If the dismounts dismount there is Alpha 2 and Alpha 2 ab. "Ab" is an abbrevation for abgesessen wich translates to dismounted. So they are saying Alpha 2 dis.

I also have the feeling there is a missconception what mounted combat means. It does not mean the dismounts shoot trough firing ports. It means the squad fights from the vehicle. Which most of the time means the IFV is engaging somthing with its weapons. The dismounts can add to that by shooting their small arms from their hatches as well. It was found out that firing ports are less effective than the dismounts just standing in their hatches and shooting from there. This way they can use all their weapons. The number of hatches was reduced from four to three in the A3 version but they have better placement and are larger.

Red7272 said:

More to do with being air transportable and reducing wear when not being deployed, rather than the armour being particularly effective.

No that is the Puma. The Puma has two armor levels. Level A for airtransport and level C for combat.
In practice all are fitte with level C armor and it would only be taken off for air transport. So there is no reduction in wear and tear. The protection of level C is pretty good but not MBT good. Its one of the best protected IFV out there currently.
The Lynx is or better can be basically whatever the customer asks for.

Red7272 said:

This is an old doctrine now and pretty much the only adherents are the Germans

Well its not as old as the we transport infantry to the fight and let them fight like they allways did.
The mechanised infantry doctrine from the German army emerged during WW2 and was later refined.
Its directly linked to the manoeuver focus of German doctrine and the experience made during WW2.
The Soviet doctrin shared the same origin and adress similar issues and experiences but came to different solutions. For example the need for infantry to be able to quickly follow armor and not get seperated from them. This was one of the main weaknesses of the Red Army during WW2 and caused them extreme losses and often lead to counterattacs retaking the objective the armor just had taken.
Both concider foot infantry ineffective in a manoeuver centric combined arms environment. Speed is one of the key factors. Even the Grenadiers can feel like a ball and chain on your foot when you need to push past the first objective onto the next ones during an attack/counterattack or when during delay you need to evade into the next position. This is why they need to be able to fight mounted. There often simply is no time to dismount spread out and fight on foot.

17thfabn

From: 17thfabn

29/6/22

Schnuersi

"I also have the feeling there is a missconception what mounted combat means. It does not mean the dismounts shoot trough firing ports. It means the squad fights from the vehicle. Which most of the time means the IFV is engaging somthing with its weapons. The dismounts can add to that by shooting their small arms from their hatches as well. It was found out that firing ports are less effective than the dismounts just standing in their hatches and shooting from there. This way they can use all their weapons. "

How effective are they standing up shooting from hatches? It would seem their arc of fire would be very limited. As well as trying to shoot while bouncing along.

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