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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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Squad Support Weapon   Army Guns 20+mm

Started 17/6/22 by stancrist; 23100 views.
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

21/6/22

stancrist said:

Since when is it "dumb" to seek to improve combat effectiveness?

Its not dumb to seek to improve something. But its dumb to start with a weak characteristic. Its far more sensbible to try and improve strong characteristics first.

stancrist said:

Now you are just making up numbers. The actual improvement would have varied with target distance.

Yes the numbers are made up. Its just an example. Never the less the variation with range is actually rather low above 100 m and 0,01 is way to high. Its orders of magnitude lower.

stancrist said:

Every rifleman a grenadier.

I am not convinced that this works. Who does the main job of the rifleman then? Carrying ammo, providing additional eyes and ears, replacement personell and short range fighting?

stancrist

From: stancrist

22/6/22

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: Every rifleman a grenadier.

I am not convinced that this works.

That's understandable.  I am not certain that it would work.  It would depend upon whether or not a viable weapon system can be developed.

At this point it's only a theory, a concept, based in large part on video evidence.  Like this, for example:  https://youtu.be/4UolMYY7QaA?t=174

schnuersi said:

Who does the main job of the rifleman then? Carrying ammo, providing additional eyes and ears, replacement personell and short range fighting?

Ammo bearer may be the main job of the German rifleman, but employing his assigned weapon in infantry combat is the main job of the American rifleman.

EmericD

From: EmericD

22/6/22

stancrist said:

That's understandable.  I am not certain that it would work.  It would depend upon whether or not a viable weapon system can be developed. At this point it's only a theory, a concept, based in large part on video evidence.  Like this, for example:  https://youtu.be/4UolMYY7QaA?t=174

Hum...

First, let's have a look of a 120 mm canister shot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Riy4EaoR76U

  • "Whoa, that's impressive, no-one could survive a single shot, so let's replace rifles with shotguns!"
  • "But, Sir, a 12 gauge shotgun will never be able to deliver this kind of results."
  • "I know, but that's simply because 12 ga. not big enough. The concept is solid, we just need a bigger gun!"
stancrist

From: stancrist

22/6/22

???  I don't get the connection.  Are you saying it's impossible to make a 30mm (or larger caliber) grenade launcher?

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

22/6/22

stancrist said:

I don't get the connection. Are you saying it's impossible to make a 30mm (or larger caliber) grenade launcher?

He is saying that a 30 mm GL will not be comparable to a 30 mm AC.

For starters the shell of a 30x173 carries a lot of KE. This makes shrapnel type ammo very effective. A 30 mm GL will not have this and thus can not use this kind of ammo effectively. It will have to be a HE-Frag. Which works different and has a different effect.
A 30 mm HEI shell weights >350 g. That is roughly one third more compared to a 40 mm grenade. You can do the math easily to figure out the possible MV with a still barable recoil.

EmericD

From: EmericD

22/6/22

stancrist said:

???  I don't get the connection.  Are you saying it's impossible to make a 30mm (or larger caliber) grenade launcher?

No, I'm saying that you can't make a man-portable grenade launcher with the destructive power of a 30 x 173 mm AC, just like a 12 gauge shotgun will not deliver the destructive power of a 120 mm canister shot, even if the concept is "the same".

stancrist

From: stancrist

22/6/22

EmericD said:

I'm saying that you can't make a man-portable grenade launcher with the destructive power of a 30 x 173 mm AC...

Okay.  The only trouble is, I never said a grenade launcher would have the same destructive power as a 30mm cannon. 

What I said is the video is an example of airburst fragmentation which makes me think the concept could possibly work.

The 30mm cannon airburst videos show fragmentation effect much better than, for example, 40mm grenade airbursts.

40x53    https://youtu.be/BPaC1LTrHy0?t=545

30x113  https://youtu.be/yuV7Pd4dheI?t=47

Murpat

From: Murpat

23/6/22

300 metres and you are struggling - even with  IR - except that it is high power - e.g. vehicle powered.

EmericD

From: EmericD

23/6/22

stancrist said:

You have a very similar "failure point" with rifle grenades. You can't load the grenade onto the rifle, take precise aim, and launch the grenade, in just 2 seconds. You need to expose yourself and stay perfectly motionless for much more than that.

Missed your edit.

Are you really (and seriously) saying that you can't point & shoot a rifle in less than 2 seconds, because you can find a random video on Youtube with someone who is not pointing & shooting a rifle in less than 2 seconds?

When doing patrol, the point man already loaded the grenade on the rifle, he just need to point the rifle, shoot, and the grenade is airborne.

EmericD

From: EmericD

23/6/22

stancrist said:

What I said is the video is an example of airburst fragmentation which makes me think the concept could possibly work.

The concept of firing bursts of high power 30 mm AC canon at targets is working, we already know that. It can even defeat tanks.

Thinking that an individual weapon could do something remotely similar is, well, wishful thinking.

stancrist said:

The 30mm cannon airburst videos show fragmentation effect much better than, for example, 40mm grenade airbursts.

40x53    https://youtu.be/BPaC1LTrHy0?t=545

30x113  https://youtu.be/yuV7Pd4dheI?t=47

Do you mean that the 40 x 53 mm is not effective enough and that we need a more powerful grenade?

If so, what is the rationale behind advocating for an individual, man-portable, grenade launcher, that will definitively be less powerful than a 40 x 53 mm?

Or maybe you are thinking about using a fully dressed Mk47 (with tripod and FCS) as the squad main asset, while the rest of the squad is issued a MP7, a spare mag and as many grenades they could carry?

That would probably work, but wouldn't be a very american way to fight!

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