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Squad Support Weapon   Army Guns 20+mm

Started 17-Jun by stancrist; 22127 views.
Murpat

From: Murpat

23-Jun

300 metres and you are struggling - even with  IR - except that it is high power - e.g. vehicle powered.

EmericD

From: EmericD

23-Jun

stancrist said:

You have a very similar "failure point" with rifle grenades. You can't load the grenade onto the rifle, take precise aim, and launch the grenade, in just 2 seconds. You need to expose yourself and stay perfectly motionless for much more than that.

Missed your edit.

Are you really (and seriously) saying that you can't point & shoot a rifle in less than 2 seconds, because you can find a random video on Youtube with someone who is not pointing & shooting a rifle in less than 2 seconds?

When doing patrol, the point man already loaded the grenade on the rifle, he just need to point the rifle, shoot, and the grenade is airborne.

EmericD

From: EmericD

23-Jun

stancrist said:

What I said is the video is an example of airburst fragmentation which makes me think the concept could possibly work.

The concept of firing bursts of high power 30 mm AC canon at targets is working, we already know that. It can even defeat tanks.

Thinking that an individual weapon could do something remotely similar is, well, wishful thinking.

stancrist said:

The 30mm cannon airburst videos show fragmentation effect much better than, for example, 40mm grenade airbursts.

40x53    https://youtu.be/BPaC1LTrHy0?t=545

30x113  https://youtu.be/yuV7Pd4dheI?t=47

Do you mean that the 40 x 53 mm is not effective enough and that we need a more powerful grenade?

If so, what is the rationale behind advocating for an individual, man-portable, grenade launcher, that will definitively be less powerful than a 40 x 53 mm?

Or maybe you are thinking about using a fully dressed Mk47 (with tripod and FCS) as the squad main asset, while the rest of the squad is issued a MP7, a spare mag and as many grenades they could carry?

That would probably work, but wouldn't be a very american way to fight!

graylion

From: graylion

23-Jun

EmericD said:

That would probably work, but wouldn't be a very american way to fight!

No? Lobbing HE at everything in sight strikes me as very American ;)

Something that surprises me a little is that nobody has proposed a 30x113 gas loaded, mechanically fired dismount gun with a tripod ;)

  • Edited 23 June 2022 10:14  by  graylion
taschoene

From: taschoene

23-Jun

graylion said:

Something that surprises me a little is that nobody has proposed a 30x113 gas loaded, mechanically fired dismount gun with a tripod ;)

It's been proposed.  (But I suspect you knew that...)

graylion

From: graylion

23-Jun

I didn't actually :)

In reply toRe: msg 59
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

23-Jun

Radar chronographs becoming smaller although magnetic field MV measurement muzzle device is probably still the most robust and cheap way to measure MV and possibly program Airburst ammo.

taschoene

From: taschoene

23-Jun

Oh, then I'm glad to have shared.

There was also the Advanced Crew Served Weapon (aka the Objective Crew Served Weapon or OCSW), basically a belt-fed grenade machinegun for OICW-like bursting projectiles (25x59 instead of 25x45).  It was supposed to bridge between the Mk19 and the M2.  (Though it was also straight up convertible to fire 12.7x99)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM307_Advanced_Crew_Served_Weapon

stancrist

From: stancrist

23-Jun

EmericD said:

Are you really (and seriously) saying that you can't point & shoot a rifle in less than 2 seconds...

???  That is not even remotely close to what I said.

I'm saying that you can't load the grenade, aim with the needed precision at targets beyond point blank range and fire in anywhere near 2 seconds.

Under ideal conditions, it takes 6-8 seconds just to load the grenade and remove the safety clip.  Under combat conditions, expect it to take longer.

EmericD said:

When doing patrol, the point man already loaded the grenade on the rifle, he just need to point the rifle, shoot, and the grenade is airborne.

Right.  How long will it take him to aim carefully enough to hit sufficiently close to a target that is 200-300 meters away?

And that's only one grenade.  For the point man to load and fire another grenade, it will take a lot longer than 2 seconds.

The same time factors are true for the rest of riflemen in the patrol, since they won't have a rifle grenade already loaded.

stancrist

From: stancrist

23-Jun

EmericD said:

       stancrist said: What I said is the video is an example of airburst fragmentation which makes me think the concept could possibly work.

The concept of firing bursts of high power 30 mm AC canon at targets is working, we already know that. It can even defeat tanks. Thinking that an individual weapon could do something remotely similar is, well, wishful thinking.

???  I said nothing about the concept of firing bursts of high power 30mm autocannon ammunition at targets.

I said the video is an example of airburst fragmentation.  I don't know why you're focused on the burst fire.

I would've used this video (https://youtu.be/yuV7Pd4dheI?t=47) of a single 30mm airburst, had I found it earlier.

EmericD said:

       stancrist said: The 30mm cannon airburst videos show fragmentation effect much better than, for example, 40mm grenade airbursts.

Do you mean that the 40 x 53 mm is not effective enough and that we need a more powerful grenade?

No, I mean that the 30mm cannon videos show fragmentation a lot better than that 40mm grenade video.

Perhaps because of the dry, dusty soil, the 30mm fragment strikes are much more visible than the 40mm.

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