stancrist said:

I'm saying that you can't load the grenade, aim with the needed precision at targets beyond point blank range and fire in anywhere near 2 seconds.

And that's OK because you don't have to, you're patrolling with the grenade on the rifle, so you can shoot your first shot as fast as you can shoot a rifle (for the lead guy).

stancrist said:

Right.  How long will it take him to aim carefully enough to hit sufficiently close to a target that is 200-300 meters away?

You're not firing rifle grenades in direct fire mode at a distance of 200-300 m. Direct fire mode (firing from the shoulder) is OK for 75-150 m. For 200-300 m, you are going to fire the grenade in indirect fire mode, like a mortar, with the rifle stock on the ground.

It will take more or less the same time than aiming a rifle and expecting a direct hit at the same distance...

You can put a decent amount of HE in a rifle grenade so even if you miss your target by a handful of meters they will take notice.

EmericD said:

       stancrist said: I'm saying that you can't load the grenade, aim with the needed precision at targets beyond point blank range and fire in anywhere near 2 seconds.

And that's OK because you don't have to, you're patrolling with the grenade on the rifle, so you can shoot your first shot as fast as you can shoot a rifle (for the lead guy).

LOL.  So the point man can fire one grenade quickly.  Golly gee wow.

After that one grenade, the point man and all of the rest of the patrol are stuck out in the open, unable to launch any more grenades for another 10-15 seconds.

If riflemen were grenadiers armed with semi-auto grenade launchers, the entire patrol could rain down airburst munitions on the enemy, with effect much like that in the autocannon video.  https://youtu.be/4UolMYY7QaA?t=174

Stll thinking a mix - something like this?

- 1 DMR 

- 1 LMG

- 4 Riflemen with extra belts or grenades

- 2 automagic grenadiers with PDW

DMR and LMG okay, but why so many riflemen?

stancrist said:

LOL.  So the point man can fire one grenade quickly.  Golly gee wow.

Yes, that's what is happening when you compare an existing system, used and fielded for decades, and something made from unobtainium and powered by fairy dust and wishful thinking, the first one is always at a disadvantage.

So, let's forget about rifle grenades and try to define the characteristics of you "grenadier automatic grenade launcher".

It seems that you feel that current 40 x 53 mm HV grenades are not up to the task, at least they seem to be less powerful than 30x113 or 30x173 mm you are constantly referring to (which, unsurprisingly, is true).

So, what is your proposal?

stancrist said:

DMR and LMG okay, but why so many riflemen?

You'd go 1+1+6?

A sidenote: indirect fire is when the shooter (gunner) can't see the target. 

What you mean is high angle fire. 

Classic mortars can fire directly, but can not fire at low angles (from their bipods). 

graylion said:

stancrist said: DMR and LMG okay, but why so many riflemen? You'd go 1+1+6?

Actually how about 

FT1 - Fusiliers

LMG + LMG + DRM + Rifle (Squad leader)

FT2 - Grenadiers

4 x AGL

Just a thought for an alternative ammo type for grenade launchers: the multiple flechette round.

About 20 years ago GD-OTS  developed the M1001 40mm HV canister cartridge round, with a payload consisting of an aluminium sabot filled with 113 flechettes 50.8mm in length, 2mm in diameter and 1.1 g in weight. The flechettes are ejected after the projectile leaves the muzzle and "are intended to provide a greater than 96% probability of hitting a standard 4.3 x 4.3 m silhouette target at its maximum range 100m when firing a three-round burst. Dispersion of the flechettes at 50m is 10.3m." Muzzle velocity was the usual 240 m/s for a HV loading, but could presumably be loaded down to suit MV recoil characteristics (or the number of flechettes could be reduced).

The round was type-classified in April 2001 for use in the MK19 and intended for close-range self protection and perimeter defence. Might be just the ticket for an instant response by the point man in urban/jungle fighting...

That's not true... Even relatively cheap commercially available thermals ($4000-$8000) can identify humans distinctly at well over a kilometer at this point.

Compared to an AFV this isn't all that impressive but the Abrams proposed third gen uncooled flir is set to be able to clearly discriminate and PID humans and vehicles at longer ranges than the 120 cannon can currently engage targets with current munitions.

Add yourself a dual setting vis light and NIR but within your sensors detection range focusable lep head illumination source and you could conceivably with commercial market stuff readily identify humans well enough to tell if they're soldiers or civilians at well past the 1 mile mark. (there's claims of 2200 meters but I'm knocking off a full 600 just to adjust for marketing department over claims)

Even the cheap kinda bad stuff can do 300 if you set them up right at this point.