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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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Squad Support Weapon   Army Guns 20+mm

Started 17-Jun by stancrist; 22526 views.
In reply toRe: msg 70
graylion

From: graylion

24-Jun

graylion said:

stancrist said: DMR and LMG okay, but why so many riflemen? You'd go 1+1+6?

Actually how about 

FT1 - Fusiliers

LMG + LMG + DRM + Rifle (Squad leader)

FT2 - Grenadiers

4 x AGL

In reply toRe: msg 72
autogun

From: autogun

24-Jun

Just a thought for an alternative ammo type for grenade launchers: the multiple flechette round.

About 20 years ago GD-OTS  developed the M1001 40mm HV canister cartridge round, with a payload consisting of an aluminium sabot filled with 113 flechettes 50.8mm in length, 2mm in diameter and 1.1 g in weight. The flechettes are ejected after the projectile leaves the muzzle and "are intended to provide a greater than 96% probability of hitting a standard 4.3 x 4.3 m silhouette target at its maximum range 100m when firing a three-round burst. Dispersion of the flechettes at 50m is 10.3m." Muzzle velocity was the usual 240 m/s for a HV loading, but could presumably be loaded down to suit MV recoil characteristics (or the number of flechettes could be reduced).

The round was type-classified in April 2001 for use in the MK19 and intended for close-range self protection and perimeter defence. Might be just the ticket for an instant response by the point man in urban/jungle fighting...

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

24-Jun

That's not true... Even relatively cheap commercially available thermals ($4000-$8000) can identify humans distinctly at well over a kilometer at this point.

Compared to an AFV this isn't all that impressive but the Abrams proposed third gen uncooled flir is set to be able to clearly discriminate and PID humans and vehicles at longer ranges than the 120 cannon can currently engage targets with current munitions.

Add yourself a dual setting vis light and NIR but within your sensors detection range focusable lep head illumination source and you could conceivably with commercial market stuff readily identify humans well enough to tell if they're soldiers or civilians at well past the 1 mile mark. (there's claims of 2200 meters but I'm knocking off a full 600 just to adjust for marketing department over claims)

Even the cheap kinda bad stuff can do 300 if you set them up right at this point.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

24-Jun

Flechette rounds are an interest of mine and something that's just so tantalizing that it keeps coming up in defense development.

One thing that has always frustrated me is how light they tend to go with the individual flechettes. 

I do understand the reasoning and ballistics behind making this Choice but I can't help but think that maybe the pure math answer is wrong here and we should instead be focusing on slightly bigger heavier flechettes packaged and released in such a way that they have less dispersion but more oomph when they impact.

graylion

From: graylion

24-Jun

one thing occurs to me - ammo carrying capability. How many 10 round sticks can a grenadier lug around?

17thfabn

From: 17thfabn

24-Jun

Autogun said

"About 20 years ago GD-OTS  developed the M1001 40mm HV canister cartridge round, with a payload consisting of an aluminium sabot filled with 113 flechettes 50.8mm in length, 2mm in diameter and 1.1 g in weight. The flechettes are ejected after the projectile leaves the muzzle and "are intended to provide a greater than 96% probability of hitting a standard 4.3 x 4.3 m silhouette target at its maximum range 100m when firing a three-round burst. Dispersion of the flechettes at 50m is 10.3m." Muzzle velocity was the usual 240 m/s for a HV loading, but could presumably be loaded down to suit MV recoil characteristics (or the number of flechettes could be reduced). "

The ballistics of the flechettes seem pretty wimpy, especially the velocity. The velocity is lower than a  .22 out of a 2" barrel.

The old buck shot 40 mm for the M79 that used to be popular were not greater either.  With the velocity of the buck shot round it ended up being about as effective as a load of 12 gauge OO buckshot if I remember correctly.

Murpat

From: Murpat

24-Jun

Thanks for the info' 

Even the cheap kinda bad stuff can do 300 if you set them up right at this point.

Obviously I have only experienced some really cheap stuff !  At anything much more than 100/150 m, it still registered but the image was more of a "blob" ... sort of ... is that a human or a roundish object? Of course, if it moved it was more defined - but not much.

  I knew the IR in/on vehicles was much more powerful. 

stancrist

From: stancrist

24-Jun

graylion said:

You'd go 1+1+6?

Yes.  As I said back in Msg 32:  "No more riflemen in the squad.  Riflemen become grenadiers."

graylion

From: graylion

24-Jun

Still leaves me with the question about ammo

stancrist

From: stancrist

24-Jun

EmericD said:

       stancrist said: LOL.  So the point man can fire one grenade quickly.  Golly gee wow.

Yes, that's what is happening when you compare an existing system, used and fielded for decades, and something made from unobtainium and powered by fairy dust and wishful thinking, the first one is always at a disadvantage.

No, that's what happens when I note the length of time it would take for most members of a patrol to load, aim and fire a rifle grenade, but you say I'm wrong because one member of the patrol would have a rifle grenade already loaded and can fire it quickly without aiming.

EmericD said:

It seems that you feel that current 40 x 53 mm HV grenades are not up to the task, at least they seem to be less powerful than 30x113 or 30x173 mm you are constantly referring to (which, unsurprisingly, is true).

I expressed no opinion on whether 40mm grenades are "up to the task" or not. 

What I said is that the 30mm airburst videos show fragmentation effects better than the only 40mm airburst video I found.

I told you that at least twice before, yet you still seem unable to comprehend it.

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