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Recent level 2 training pics   Behavior and Training

Started 11/16/22 by ChipBlasiole; 10972 views.
ChipBlasiole

From: ChipBlasiole

12/16/22

Being a sport, unlike PPD or K9 ( I assume you mean police dog training) the dog's performance is judged based on standards of the particular sport and the performance is given points by the judge.  Enough points have to be earned to pass.  For example, correct heeling should be focused with correct position.  Sits and downs either in motion or as change of positions earn more points for being fast and correct meaning they are straight, not sitting or downing on one haunch, not moving forward when commanded to change position from a sit to a down, outs should be fast, guards should be fast and focused on the decoy, transports should show the dog coming into the transport fast and focused on the decoy, bite mechanics such as targeting and grip are scored, speed of entries into a bite are scored, and those are just some examples.  If a dogs puts teeth on suit when they are not supposed to, they are disqualified.  There are call offs.  A lot of the level 3 scenarios  require ridiculous control and have nothing to do with what you would expect of a PPD or police dog.  A PPD and police dog just need to accomplish a task and have some control, but the manner in which they do it doesn't really matter.  Many police dogs are pulled off the bite and don't have an out, which would disqualify a dog in PSA and other sports.  There really is little comparison to sport vs. PP or police work.

DW (GSDogwalker)

From: DW (GSDogwalker)

12/16/22

Yeah, I knew about LE dogs not having an out, but not all of them.  How do PSA and KPNV compare? We don’t have clubs for those here that I know of.

ChipBlasiole

From: ChipBlasiole

12/16/22

I don’t think they compare at all.  KNPV, while still a sport, is designed to select genetics for police dogs.  Most KNPV dogs get their PH1 and the handler sells them as a police prospect.  There is little desire to train a dog to the highest levels and dogs that squire the highest levels are typically less suited as police dogs.  It is a totally different culture.  The dogs are made crazy to bite and then severe compulsion is used to get the PH1.  KNPV got into trouble a few years ago when someone put cameras out that were hidden to show the abusive training.  The other side of that is that the abusive training washes out all but the hardest dogs.  The obedience in KNPV does not require a high level of precision and handlers are not attached to their dogs and typically train a dog to a PH 1 and sell the dog as a police prospect and get another dog.  Some of the training can be brutal.  I know of one KNPV dog imported to the states that threw great genetics but could not work anymore due to a damaged larynx.  The trend has changed from lines that produced super genetically dominant dogs to super social but extreme prey dogs because the older style highly dominant dogs sold to other countries as police prospects did not have skilled enough handlers to deal with such dogs so the market demand changed.  Some of the old KNPV lines, which outcrossed to other breeds like pit bulls, Rottweilers, Great Danes, we’re very serious dogs.  Modern KNPV lines are still considered Mal X’s because they are not purebred and don’t have papers.  If the dog is fawn colored it is called a Mal X and if it is brindle it is called a DS X.  Dutch FCI registered dogs are different and generally are not as strong as the unregistered cross bred dogs.

DW (GSDogwalker)

From: DW (GSDogwalker)

12/16/22

Thanks, that is a good explanation.  Why would anyone want a KPNV dog if they are hard to handle and damaged?  I’ve known several K9 handlers and they were all men and all relatively soft owners.  It was not what I expected when I met them.

ChipBlasiole

From: ChipBlasiole

12/19/22

It is not so much that they are hard to handle as it is that the Dutch tend to train in a way where they build the dog up to be crazy to bite with little control being developed along the way, and then they introduce severe compulsion to get the control they need, which is not that much because the sport's goal is to select for police dogs.  I would argue it is not a smart way to train and they would probably argue their style has produced good results because it weeds out all but the most driven and resilient dogs.  The temperament of KNPV dogs has changed some over the years in that you don't see as many highly genetically dominant dogs.  One reason having to do with the winding down of 9/11 and terrorism and another being, those type of dogs, when imported to places like the US, could not be handled by most K9 handlers and often were returned.  We have quite a few KNPV line Mal X's in our club and they are not hard to handle if trained in a smart way.  Because our club members almost exclusively aim to compete in PSA, establishing control from the beginning is paramount.  One way to do that is to establish a mindset in pups that they need to settle and learn think in obedience and bite work.  Typically food is used when obedience is started because you can use a much higher rate of reinforcement than with a toy and a toy is going to stimulate prey drive more and those lines typically have more than enough prey drive. With bite work, you have to try to keep the pups' minds and drive at a level that they are highly motivated to bite, bite no so high that can't think and learn.  That is very different that the typical Dutch approach where the pups learn bite, bite, bite with no control and then severe compulsion is added latter.  As I said, the level of control needed in PSA vs. KNPV is night and day.  Also, most KNPV trainers will train a pup to a PH 1 level and sell it as a police prospect and get another pup and repeat the process.  In the states, the dog typically is the handler's companion and if they compete in PSA, they want to try to compete at the highest levels and they will keep the dog through its life.  Exceptions are if the dog is lacking in drive or nerves, or if the dog is so extreme, even smart training is going to make success in PSA very difficult.  Even German Shepherds bred for KNPV that come to the states as police dogs tend to have control and handler aggression issues because they breed for extremes and don't introduce control early in the training.  They probably have less stringent requirements for police dogs than police departments in the states.

DW (GSDogwalker)

From: DW (GSDogwalker)

12/19/22

They have different goals. Won’t they stop buying KNPV dogs if word gets out they are being returned?

ChipBlasiole

From: ChipBlasiole

12/21/22

I think the trend of breeding highly genetically dominant dogs has significantly decreased and the issue now days is more about the foundation training of green KNPV dogs sold to the states as police dogs.  The other issue is that probably the majority of K9 handlers are young , inexperienced and don't have access to good training especially how to manage dogs with a foundation of no control and some aggression.  A department in our club's area sent a K9 handler to our club's main training director/decoy for help getting the dog certified because the dog sent the handler to the hospital.  There is a saying that many K9 handlers go into that line of police work for the t-shirt.

DW (GSDogwalker)

From: DW (GSDogwalker)

12/21/22

Green dogs are trendy now. I only learned about them on the other forum about a year ago. If the dogs are capable, doing their own training is a good idea.  It’s very difficult to get a K9 pick in our police departments.  Not everyone who wants to be a handler is chosen.  I’ve noticed the new ones are are on the young side.  My car broke down and a K9 officer was first on the scene but he left his dog in the car.  I talked to him about Mals and training and we had a good chat before the tow truck arrived.  The handler looked about 18 but was probably closer to 30.  

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