Faith Issues,News & Religions -  Creationism vs. Evolution (2559 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
 
From: phoenix50351/5/17 6:51 PM 
To: All  (1 of 145) 
 37126.1 

I think we can stand a good discussion on Creation vs. Evolution:  The whole shebang!

I consider myself to be an 'old earth' creationist.

In other words, I accept the fossil evidence that the world as we know it materially is millions, if not billions, of years old.

In other words, that creation existed before what is describes by G-d's word in Genesis 1.

What I believe is actually being defined by G-d's word in Genesis 1 is the start of civilization around G-d's creation of the seven-day week.

The 365-day year (plus one for leap year) is of the natural sciences:  Astronomy.

The seven day week is of G-d, and His creation.

We were given dominion over creation under G-d through His creating the seven day week.

I am a fundamentalist, but not a literalist.

I believe we were created by G-d in the first place.  I don't believe in evolution.  But I don't take the creation account in Genesis 1 literally.

Let's talk about it all.

Amen.

Thomas.

 
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From: Secundus5551/5/17 11:28 PM 
To: phoenix5035  (2 of 145) 
 37126.2 in reply to 37126.1 

I respect this belief.

My own is somewhat similar...But different in certain key ways.

The fact is that for most of the last 2,000 years, the overwhelming majority of Christianity has understood Genesis non-literally. From the late 1st, early 2nd Century on, most of the Early Church Father's (with a few notable exceptions) interpreted Genesis ALLEGORICALLY. 

What I am driving at is that this is an ANCIENT way to view Genesis, not a modern "Liberal" view. 

My belief is that Genesis describes in a SYMBOLIC form, the process of Creation.

I believe, as you do, in an OLD Earth, and an old universe. I believe that God created the universe 13.8 Billion years ago. What science calls "the Big Bang" was in fact the moment that God said "Let there be...." And the universe exploded into being. The "days of Creation" are symbolic of the fact that God created the world over a period of time...Not all at once. Perhaps over billions of years. And the fact that God created man "from the dust of the earth" would be consistent with the idea that God created our physical form from lower forms of life through the process of Evolution. At some point, however, God perfected our physical form over millions of years, finally evolving into a highly intelligent primate. Then God breathed into us a SOUL, making us truly HUMAN. Before God graced us with a soul, the creature was merely an intelligent ANIMAL. But afterward, he was HUMAN. God made him spiritually alive to God, capable of having a mutual relationship with him, and morally aware, conscious of good and evil and capable of doing either, and thus morally RESPONSIBLE for his actions.

The story in Genesis about the naked couple in a garden being tempted by a talking snake to eat the fruit from a tree embued with cosmic qualities is a SYMBOLIC story which recounts our moral choices and their consequences. The trees, the talking snake, the fruit...All obvious literary symbols. 

Yes, I believe that God created everything. AND I believe in the Big Bang and Evolution...As God's chosen process by which he created the universe. 

There is NO contradiction between believing God created the universe AND believing in Evolution. Darwinian Evolution does not REQUIRE a person to reject belief in God as the Creator. Nor does belief in God require us to reject science. 

Only if we interpret Genesis LITERALLY is there a conflict. And, like I said, for most of the last 2,000 years, including today, MOST of Christianity interprets Genesis NON-LITERALLY. Even today, 75-80% of Christianity is NOT literalists or fundamentalists. Less than 20% of Christians worldwide are Fundamentalists and Biblical Literalists. 

A person can be a faithful Christian AND believe in Evolution... Believing, of course, that it is GOD who is ultimately behind all of the science. 

I am one of those.

Secundus 

 

 
From: Reforger11/6/17 7:09 AM 
To: phoenix5035  (3 of 145) 
 37126.3 in reply to 37126.1 

Evolution is a religion with no evidence to support it. Cosmic evolution, Chemical evolution and Macro-evolution are metaphysical constructs with no basis in science.

Young earth or old earth is irrelevant in that time is a property of the universe and is expanding with the universe making the age dependent on ones viewpoint.

How do we date fossils? By the rock they are found in. Well how do we date the rock? by the fossils found in it. Circular reasoning. Don't even get me started on radiometeric dating.

The difference in someone trained in the sciences and a layperson: Example: The lay person says "365 day year", a more accurate depiction would be 365.25 years +/- variation caused by the change in the rotation of the earth (about +1 second per year now IIRC, the so called leap-second)

Since you are calling for a full week of Creation, I assume you forgot to include Chapter two of Genesis where the seventh day occurs. One of the problems with believing the these chapters to be allegorical is that in doing that you make the institution of marriage allegorical (It's in chapter two) and if one includes chapter 3 as allegorical, then the fall of man, God's judgement and redemption become allegorical.

At what point in Genesis does the allegorical become the actual?

So you have started two , not one, discussions ... "Creation vs. evolution" and "Genesis - Allegorical or actual"
 

 

 
From: Reforger11/6/17 7:21 AM 
To: Secundus555  (4 of 145) 
 37126.4 in reply to 37126.2 

There is NO contradiction between believing God created the universe AND believing in Evolution.

Brother, every time you utter that I will oppose it. Creation is directed purposeful design. Evolution is undirected random and purposeless. Creation demands a God. Evolution precludes a God.

The Big Bang is actually science that supports Creation. Evolution is NOT science. There is NO causal device found. There is only anecdote. The demands made by the evolutionist fly in the face of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Secundus, you know I love you like my brother. But I must disagree with you. The only question is do we argue the science or the theology?  It might take me a few days to reply. I'm starting back on night shift today.

 

 

 
From: Secundus5551/6/17 10:07 AM 
To: Reforger1  (5 of 145) 
 37126.5 in reply to 37126.4 

>>>Brother, every time you utter that I will oppose it. Creation is directed purposeful design. Evolution is undirected random and purposeless. Creation demands a God. Evolution precludes a God.<<<

Tell that to the 40% of the scientific community who believes in BOTH. Tell that to Dr Francis S Collins, the director of the Human Genome Project, which decoded human DNA back in the 90s, who believes in both and wrote the book The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief, and maintains the website www.biologos.org that is focused on this issue.

Evolution does NOT presuppose that the process is "undirected random and purposeless". It simply does not. It does not presuppose the NON-EXISTENCE of God. From OUR perspective, the process may SEEM undirected and random. Only those who ADD TO the theory of Evolution, a PRESUPPOSITION of Pure Naturalism (the belief that nothing apart from this physical universe exists) and who have an a priori atheistic stance would say that Evolution means God cannot exist.

Think about it....Science does not say anything ONE WAY OR THE OTHER about the existence of God. It simply DOES NOT ADDRESS THE ISSUE. At most, science is simply "agnostic" regarding the existence of God. The theory of Evolution does NOT require belief or disbelief in God. It leaves that part of the equation to the individual. It makes NO determination on the question. 

Therefore, there is NOTHING that says that a person could not conclude that God used the process of Evolution....GUIDED BY HIS HAND, AND UNFOLDING EXACTLY ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSES (using the natural laws and processes that HE designed)...As the MEANS by which he created this world and us. 

This conclusion would be completely consistent with the Christian faith, and completely consistent with the science of Evolution. Science merely observes the physical evidence and seeks to explain the patterns it sees. Is it always perfect? Of course not. By its very nature, science is always adjusting it's understanding as new information comes to light.

You may disagree with me on this, but I have little personal doubt that when we get to heaven, and God explains the secrets of Creation to us, that there will be parts of the process that science got wrong....But I believe that it will be shown to be GENERALLY correct and in the right ballpark of what happened. 

But to say that Evolution REQUIRES one to reject belief in God is simply FACTUALLY INCORRECT. Millions of people believe in both. Surveys of the scientific community reveal that 40% of scientists believe in both. So clearly you are simply WRONG when you say this.

You have been SO conditioned by the Atheists who have USED Evolution to ATTACK Christianity (their attacks only apply to or work against FUNDAMENTALISTS who are Biblical Literalists in regards to Genesis), that you ASSUME that Evolution IS atheistic. It is not. Those Atheists who have used it to ATTACK belief in God have MISUSED and ADDED TO what the science ACTUALLY says. Science makes NO judgements regarding the existence or non-existence of God one way or the other. It simply doesn't address the issue. It is beyond the realm of what Science can answer. It is like using a microscope to try to see a star in the sky. It is an instrument that is not designed for that purpose and cannot do it. 

Therefore, science, and the theory of Evolution are simply NEUTRAL on the question of the existence of God. Now... INDIVIDUALS who believe in that theory may not be neutral...But they cannot use science or Evolution to "disprove" the existence of God. The science simply isn't there, and even many honest Atheists will admit that Science cannot DISPROVE the existence of God...It simply doesn't say one way or the other. 

What IS in direct conflict with Science, however is Fundamentalism. It is true that a person CANNOT be a Fundamentalist Christian holding to a literal 6-Day Creation understanding of Genesis and believe in Evolution. One necessarily excludes the other. But less that 15% of Christians worldwide are Fundamentalists. 

For most of the last 2,000 years the overwhelming majority of Christianity has understood Genesis non-literally. And there is NO logically necessary conflicts between an Allegorical understanding of Genesis and a belief in Darwinian Evolution. None. The fact that millions of Christians and 40% of scientists believe in both is testament to that.

You need to reframe your understanding of what the Theory of Evolution actually IS from a scientific standpoint apart from the way a few militant Atheists have MISUSED it. 

You may disagree with Evolution as an explanation of the evidence...But you CANNOT rightly say that to believe in both Evolution and God as our Creator is a CONTRADICTION.

 

Secundus

 

  • Edited January 6, 2017 10:11 am  by  Secundus555
 

 
From: Secundus5551/6/17 11:39 AM 
To: Reforger1  (6 of 145) 
 37126.6 in reply to 37126.4 
 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by host1/6/17 12:28 PM 
To: phoenix5035  (7 of 145) 
 37126.7 in reply to 37126.1 

 

37126.1 
 

I think we can stand a good discussion on Creation vs. Evolution:  The whole shebang!

bob>Great idea Thomas! 

I consider myself to be an 'old earth' creationist.

In other words, I accept the fossil evidence that the world as we know it materially is millions, if not billions, of years old.

In other words, that creation existed before what is describes by G-d's word in Genesis 1.

bob>Some think God "reformed" the earth in the fisrt verse. Have you head of this? 

What I believe is actually being defined by G-d's word in Genesis 1 is the start of civilization around G-d's creation of the seven-day week.

The 365-day year (plus one for leap year) is of the natural sciences:  Astronomy.

bob>The Jewish year, I think varies from one year to another, in that there is an "extra" month that's added in some years. I think God's calendar deals more with seasons, than the 365 1/4 year the romans/greeks had.  

The seven day week is of G-d, and His creation.

bob>I agree and it seems simple, but it's brilliant. 

We were given dominion over creation under G-d through His creating the seven day week.

I am a fundamentalist, but not a literalist.

bob>I think they both go together. The big bang seems to fit God's creation in the bible, using the Jewish understanding of creation being 6 ages not 6 days. 

I believe we were created by G-d in the first place.  I don't believe in evolution.  But I don't take the creation account in Genesis 1 literally.

bob>I think big bang works with the bible, I don't see evidence for evolution and if it were correct, there should be lots of evidence. 

Let's talk about it all.


 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by host1/6/17 12:38 PM 
To: Secundus555  (8 of 145) 
 37126.8 in reply to 37126.2 

The fact is that for most of the last 2,000 years, the overwhelming majority of Christianity has understood Genesis non-literally. From the late 1st, early 2nd Century on, most of the Early Church Father's (with a few notable exceptions) interpreted Genesis ALLEGORICALLY. 

What I am driving at is that this is an ANCIENT way to view Genesis, not a modern "Liberal" view. 

My belief is that Genesis describes in a SYMBOLIC form, the process of Creation.

I believe, as you do, in an OLD Earth, and an old universe. I believe that God created the universe 13.8 Billion years ago. What science calls "the Big Bang" was in fact the moment that God said "Let there be...." And the universe exploded into being.

bob>We agree. 

The "days of Creation" are symbolic of the fact that God created the world over a period of time...Not all at once. Perhaps over billions of years.

bob>We agree and we both seem to accept the Jewish creation concept of 6 ages. 

And the fact that God created man "from the dust of the earth" would be consistent with the idea that God created our physical form from lower forms of life through the process of Evolution.

bob> 6th day man, was formed via a "process", but evolution should present millions of forms of evidence, we don't find any. 

At some point, however, God perfected our physical form over millions of years, finally evolving into a highly intelligent primate.

bob>I take the days in order, mankind on the 6th day, God rested on the 7th, THEN God "formed" Adam on the "8th day" God may have formed Adam to lead the 6th day man, that's how God works. He will raise up one man to lead the other for him. Adam, Abraham, Moses, Daivid and so on, that's how God works. 

Then God breathed into us a SOUL, making us truly HUMAN.

bob>6th day mankind may not have had a soul, but Adam was given one. 

Before God graced us with a soul, the creature was merely an intelligent ANIMAL. But afterward, he was HUMAN. God made him spiritually alive to God, capable of having a mutual relationship with him, and morally aware, conscious of good and evil and capable of doing either, and thus morally RESPONSIBLE for his actions.

bob>Okay. 

The story in Genesis about the naked couple in a garden being tempted by a talking snake to eat the fruit from a tree embued with cosmic qualities is a SYMBOLIC story which recounts our moral choices and their consequences. The trees, the talking snake, the fruit...All obvious literary symbols. 

bob>One tree is Chrsit, the other satan, right? 

Yes, I believe that God created everything. AND I believe in the Big Bang and Evolution...As God's chosen process by which he created the universe. 

There is NO contradiction between believing God created the universe AND believing in Evolution. Darwinian Evolution does not REQUIRE a person to reject belief in God as the Creator. Nor does belief in God require us to reject science. 

bob>Good science supports the bible. 

Only if we interpret Genesis LITERALLY is there a conflict. And, like I said, for most of the last 2,000 years, including today, MOST of Christianity interprets Genesis NON-LITERALLY. Even today, 75-80% of Christianity is NOT literalists or fundamentalists. Less than 20% of Christians worldwide are Fundamentalists and Biblical Literalists. 

bob>When pagan gentiles came into the Christian fold, they brought certain pagan things with them, 6th days of creation and so on. 

A person can be a faithful Christian AND believe in Evolution... Believing, of course, that it is GOD who is ultimately behind all of the science.

bob>accepting a certain creation theory won't save anyone, only Christ can do that, so we don't need to hammer other Christians who hold on to the 6th day theory.  

I am one of those.

bob>God created physics at the same time He created the universe. He's smart! 

 


 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by host1/6/17 12:42 PM 
To: Reforger1  (9 of 145) 
 37126.9 in reply to 37126.3 

Evolution is a religion with no evidence to support it

bob>I think it has some evidence to support it, I think it goes with the bible when using the Jewish creation concept. I don't see creation being a religion, science is a religion to some but science has to keep changing it's mind over and over and acts like it was right the entire time. 

. Cosmic evolution, Chemical evolution and Macro-evolution are metaphysical constructs with no basis in science.

Young earth or old earth is irrelevant in that time is a property of the universe and is expanding with the universe making the age dependent on ones viewpoint.

How do we date fossils? By the rock they are found in. Well how do we date the rock? by the fossils found in it. Circular reasoning. Don't even get me started on radiometeric dating.

bob>your right, carbon dating only work about 100,000 years back, from there is a lot of guess. 

The difference in someone trained in the sciences and a layperson: Example: The lay person says "365 day year", a more accurate depiction would be 365.25 years +/- variation caused by the change in the rotation of the earth (about +1 second per year now IIRC, the so called leap-second)

bob>The Jewish year is calculated differently. 

 


 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by host1/6/17 12:46 PM 
To: Reforger1  (10 of 145) 
 37126.10 in reply to 37126.4 

There is NO contradiction between believing God created the universe AND believing in Evolution.

bob>The hebrew word translated as "created" in the 6th day man verse, means via a "process" could that process be evolution, could be, I don't see a fossil record proving evolution. So, some sort of process is right. Adam was "created/formed" the hebrew word translated as "created" with Adam, means "formed by hand" which is very different from 6 day man.  

Brother, every time you utter that I will oppose it. Creation is directed purposeful design. Evolution is undirected random and purposeless. Creation demands a God. Evolution precludes a God.

bob>It could be, or not, evolution, but some type of process created 6th day man. 

The Big Bang is actually science that supports Creation.

bob>We agree. 

Evolution is NOT science. There is NO causal device found. There is only anecdote. The demands made by the evolutionist fly in the face of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

bob>I don't see evidence for evolution. 

Secundus, you know I love you like my brother. But I must disagree with you. The only question is do we argue the science or the theology?  It might take me a few days to reply. I'm starting back on night shift today.

bob> I liked working nights, do you? Good science supports the bible. 


 

 

 
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