Bible Topics & Bible Studies -  Works vs. Faith (305 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
 
From: AryehLeib613Oct-15 12:07 AM 
To: All  (1 of 22) 
 37787.1 

Christians emphasize faith while Jews emphasize "works" that we call mitzvot/commandments.

Paul wrote:

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law. But if, in our effort to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have been found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! But if I build up again the very things that I once tore down, then I demonstrate that I am a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing. (Galatians 2:15-21)

When God created Adam He  made him different from animals in two ways. He created Adam in His "image" (meaning not in His appearance but in other qualities). He also commanded Adam.  Animals were not commanded.

Genesis 1:27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the sky and over all the beasts that tread upon the earth. " 29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every seed bearing herb, which is upon the surface of the entire earth, and to all the fowl of the heavens, and every tree that has seed bearing fruit; it will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and to all the fowl of the heavens, and to everything that moves upon the earth, in which there is a living spirit, every green herb to eat," and it was so.

2:15 Now the Lord God took the man, and He placed him in the Garden of Eden to work it and to guard it. 16 And the Lord God commanded man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat. 17 But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die."

Obeying God's commandments are essential to being human. Jews have 613 commandments to obey, as applicable. (Temple and offering commandments are in abeyance  and gender-related commandments do not apply to the opposite gender.) Non-Jews have seven principal ones.

Genesis 26:5 Because Abraham hearkened to My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My instructions."

Exodus 20:6 and [I] perform loving kindness to thousands [of generations], to those who love Me and to those who keep My commandments.

Leviticus 22:31 You shall keep My commandments and perform them. I am the Lord.

Numbers 15:40 So that you shall remember and perform all My commandments and you shall be holy to your God.

Deuteronomy 13:5 You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

Psalm 119:32 [In] the way of Your commandments I shall run, for You will broaden my understanding. --- 127 Because I loved Your commandments more than gold, even more than fine gold.

Ecclesiastes 12: The end of the matter, everything h
...[Message truncated]

 
 Reply   Options 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostOct-16 10:25 AM 
To: AryehLeib613  (2 of 22) 
 37787.2 in reply to 37787.1 

Christians emphasize faith while Jews emphasize "works" that we call mitzvot/commandments.

bob>Very true Len.. Some Christian churches act like works is a bad thing, they seem to be scared people will put works ahead of faith and they remind us that works won't save you. However, as you pointed out, tbe NT says to have works, we are required to have works, "faith without works is dead" and God loves those that love Him AND follows His commands/will" which is works! I have told other Christians we are to have works and they think I'm wrong, just as you'er saying, they think grace/faith is all they need, they are wrong. Thanks for posting on this subject, it's a good one. 


 

 

 
From: CorkybobOct-20 1:03 AM 
To: AryehLeib613  (3 of 22) 
 37787.3 in reply to 37787.1 

dear Aryeh,

?Catholics and Jews have a similar take on works and faith.  Good Works are pleasing to God and thus God gives graces to these people to continue their Good Works.  Faith is our Faith in total meaning Good Works are a part of our Faith.  Protestants seem to feel that Faith is the knowledge that Jesus is their Lord and Savior where Catholics see this as conversion and thus the person will embrace their Faith as a whole in order to please God.  Protestants also see the prohibition of Paul's works do not save as going in conflict to Catholics works save.  Catholics look at Paul's works as works of the Law.  Paul is saying that the Mosaic law does not save.  Thus circumcision does not save, but Christian baptism does.

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostOct-20 9:59 AM 
To: Corkybob  (4 of 22) 
 37787.4 in reply to 37787.3 

?Catholics and Jews have a similar take on works and faith.  Good Works are pleasing to God and thus God gives graces to these people to continue their Good Works.  Faith is our Faith in total meaning Good Works are a part of our Faith.

bob>That's great and that's how it's supposed to be. 

  Protestants seem to feel that Faith is the knowledge that Jesus is their Lord and Savior

bob>Yrue

where Catholics see this as conversion and thus the person will embrace their Faith as a whole in order to please God.

bob>Meaning have works too. They go together, I agree. 

  Protestants also see the prohibition of Paul's works do not save as going in conflict to Catholics works save. 

bob>I think your saying works don't save, but we are to have works. 

Catholics look at Paul's works as works of the Law.

bob>What law? 

  Paul is saying that the Mosaic law does not save.  Thus circumcision does not save, but Christian baptism does.

bob>Laws don't save, circumcision just hurts, baptism gets you wet, only Jesus saves. However, many protestants think works don't/won't save, so they don't put much effort in them, which is wrong. Faith without works is dead, we are to have works, we agree.  


 

 

 
From: ButchGOct-21 12:23 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (5 of 22) 
 37787.5 in reply to 37787.4 

However, many protestants think works don't/won't save,

They don't, they won't and they can't save.

so they don't put much effort in them, which is wrong.

Effort?? What "effort"? When a person is truly saved, there is no "effort" in loving people and doing good towards them whenever possible. Did Jesus put effort into doing good, or did it just come naturally to Him? It should come just as naturally to a born again believer, as well, or there is something drastically wrong with them, and perhaps, a heart check would be in order, to see if they are really in the faith.

It is no longer I who live, but, Christ who lives in me, says it all, for those who understand what it means.

 

 

 

 
From: ButchGOct-21 12:38 PM 
To: Corkybob  (6 of 22) 
 37787.6 in reply to 37787.3 

Protestants also see the prohibition of Paul's works do not save as going in conflict to Catholics works save.  

Are you saying that your works save you, or are works the result of you being saved?  

 

 
From: CorkybobOct-22 5:46 AM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (7 of 22) 
 37787.7 in reply to 37787.4 

dear Bob,

>>bob>What law?<<

The Mosaic Law.  Many of the Jewish Christians did not accept the Council of Jerusalem's pronouncement that salvation came from Christ and his sacraments.  They dogged Paul through out his ministry claiming that in order to be a follower of Christ one had to be circumcised, in effect becoming ews before they became Christians.  Another issue with some Protestants is that they feel that onced saved always saved where Catholics and the early church held that it is a process.  Salvation with Paul is the route of salvation has been cleared.  To be saved meant that the person had the ability to be saved by the sacraments, the 3 major being baptism, penance (confession), and the Holy Eucharist.

>>bob>Laws don't save, circumcision just hurts, baptism gets you wet, only Jesus saves. However, many protestants think works don't/won't save, so they don't put much effort in them, which is wrong. Faith without works is dead, we are to have works, we agree.<<

Baptism isn't a law, its a sacrament and it does save.

1 Peter 3:That ark which Noe was then building, in which a few souls, eight in all, found refuge as they passed through the waves,[3] 21 was a type of the baptism which saves us now.

As far as good works, they do save in that not doing good works can #### you.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit down upon the throne of his glory, 32 and all nations will be gathered in his presence, where he will divide men one from the other, as the shepherd divides the sheep from the goats; 33 he will set the sheep on his right, and the goats on his left. 34 Then the King will say to those who are on his right hand, Come, you that have received a blessing from my Father, take possession of the kingdom which has been prepared for you since the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me food, thirsty, and you gave me drink; I was a stranger, and you brought me home, 36 naked, and you clothed me, sick, and you cared for me, a prisoner, and you came to me. 37 Whereupon the just will answer, Lord, when was it that we saw thee hungry, and fed thee, or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When was it that we saw thee a stranger, and brought thee home, or naked, and clothed thee? 39 When was it that we saw thee sick or in prison and came to thee? 40 And the King will answer them, Believe me, when you did it to one of the least of my brethren here, you did it to me. 41 Then he will say to those who are on his left hand, in their turn, Go far from me, you that are accursed, into that eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 42
...[Message truncated]

 

 
From: CorkybobOct-22 5:58 AM 
To: ButchG  (8 of 22) 
 37787.8 in reply to 37787.6 

dear Butch,

>>Are you saying that your works save you, or are works the result of you being saved?<<

Most Protestants hold that salvation is a once thing, usually acknowledging that Jesus is your Lord and Savior.  Catholics and the Early Church held that salvation is an ongoing process.  Good works saves because it prevent you from going to Hell.  Look up Matthew 25:31-45.  Notice that it is the Shepard dividing his flock.  These are all Christians.

pax

corkybob

 

 

 

 
From: ButchGOct-22 9:53 AM 
To: Corkybob  (9 of 22) 
 37787.9 in reply to 37787.8 

No sir, you couldn't be more wrong. "Good works" will not prevent anyone from going to hell.

Only a true belief in Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross at Calvary, will prevent anyone from going to hell. 

Also, those mentioned in Matthew were not all Christians. If you know a little about the bible, you may remember in Matthew 13: 24-30, that when the weeds(unsaved) started intermingling with the wheat(true believers), the Lord said not to divide them, but, to let them grow together until the time of the harvest, which is what you just mentioned, and then Jesus will gather His true believers to Himself and the weeds/unsaved He will see to the fact that they will burn in the eternal Lake of Fire.

You need to repent of your works based Salvation. Jesus Christ will have none of it, and He even refers to what you call your "good works", as filthy rags.

 

 
From: AryehLeib613Oct-22 11:07 AM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (10 of 22) 
 37787.10 in reply to 37787.4 

bob>Laws don't save, circumcision just hurts, baptism gets you wet, only Jesus saves. However, many protestants think works don't/won't save, so they don't put much effort in them, which is wrong. Faith without works is dead, we are to have works, we agree.  

Hello Bob,

Circumcision is a mitzva, a commandment, but only for Jews. God would not hurt us for no reason.

Not only is circumcision a mitzva; it is a sign of the Covenant between God and Israel. This is our faith.

Genesis 17:11 And you (Abraham) shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be as the sign of a covenant between Me and between you. 12 And at the age of eight days, every male shall be circumcised to you throughout your generations, one that is born in the house, or one that is purchased with money, from any foreigner, who is not of your seed. 13 Those born in the house and those purchased for money shall be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant. 14 And an uncircumcised male, who will not circumcise the flesh of his foreskin-that soul will be cut off from its people; he has broken My covenant."

Joshua 5:2 At that time the Lord said to Joshua, Make for yourself sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.

Gentiles do not need circumcision and you earn Heaven, are "saved," simply by following the seven Noahite mitzvot/laws; not the 613 required of Jews. That should have been Paul's message to the gentile fold; it is mine.

 

  • Edited October 22, 2017 11:17 am  by  AryehLeib613
 

 
Navigate this discussion: 1-10 11-20 21-22
Adjust text size:
Using a mobile device? Switch to the Mobile Site.

Welcome, guest! Get more out of Delphi Forums by logging in.

New to Delphi Forums? You can log in with your Facebook, Twitter, or Google account or use the New Member Login option and log in with any email address.

Home | Help | Forums | Chat | Blogs | Advertising | Membership Plans
© Delphi Forums LLC All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Service.