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From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostMay-1 3:17 PM 
To: All  (1 of 54) 
 38199.1 

Corky>The various Oral Traditions of the Bible come from the Apostles.  In a day where there was not free access to written material, no digital texting, no mail to speak of the Ancient world was left with nothing but Oral Tradition.  Those who kept the Oral Tradition were very good listeners who could listen to a speech and repeat it a decade later.  The Catholic Church was the keeper of these traditions because all followers of Christ as we know today, of Him being our Lord and Savior, were Catholic. 

bob>Hi Corky, above is a quote from you and I am trying to understand the Catholic stand on the bible, OT and NT. I assume the RCC accept the OT and that is was written by the direction of God, how am I doing?

bob> Also, you mention about the NT that the apostles and other writers of the bible were writing down oral traditions and that God directed their words, but they wrote down what they understood about oral traditions in the NT. Am I right? 


 

 
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From: CorkybobMay-3 12:27 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (2 of 54) 
 38199.2 in reply to 38199.1 

dear Bob,

Amazingly In the last week or so I've been contemplating writting about how Catholics look at Christianity.

It all began shortly after creation.  Several Saints who said they had spoke to God had stated that God had gathereed the Angels and said that His plan was to create man.  Man would sin and He would send His Son who would become man and die for mankind.  Lucifer the prince of the Angels (most glorious of the Angels) was incensed.  He said that he would adore God because in Gods glory he saw his reflection of his glory but he would never bow down to a man (Jesus.)  This started the revolt of the Angles with Micheal defeating Lucifer,  Lucifer then becomes Satan (one who blocks.)  With the plan God had picked Mary to be created sinless, like Adam and Eve were.  Sinless inorder for her to bare Christ in her womb.

Jump to about 16 BC.  A woman by the name of Anne was married to a man named Joachim.  They had been married a long time and were childless, just as the parents of Issac and John the Baptist.  God granted them their prayer and Mary was born.  She grew up happy, lively, obedient, and religious.  My interptaion that because of Anne's and Joachim's age that they could not afford a dowry and Mary's holiness, they gave her to the Temple Priest to be a Temple Virgin ( these priest would offer up young religious girls as virgins so that Isaiah 7:14 could be fulfilled.)  They would bring old holy widowers to act as protectors for these young girls.  The priest would go to a girl and hold his hand over the girls head and wait for a sign from God to which widower would be matched up with that girl.  When the priest came to Mary and held his hand over the girls head a dove flew in and settled on Josephs staff.

This is when the Biblical narritive begin With in a year the the Arc-Angel visits Mary and Mary visits Elizabeth and She then becomes the Blessed Virgin Mary.  Within 2 years of the Temple Jesus is born.  The Blessed Virgin Mary promised God to remain a Virgin all of her life, God fulfilled the promise in Isaiah 7:14.  She was planed to be the mother of God from before the creation of Man.  She had a choice to decline it.  She could have said no because if she was considered a adultress she would have been stoned.  She said yes so she is the most heric and greatest person outside of Jesus who has ever lived for with her Yes she allowed the world to be saved.  This is why the Blessed Virgin Mary is worhiped in a hyper-dulia way, that is hero worshiped.

Jump to the death of Christ.  With that the Apostles went into hiding.  Strike the Shepard and the Sheep will scatter.  Jesus rises from the dead and they gather again.  With this Jesus forgives Peter for his denial by making him the Shepard, feed my lambs and feed my sheep, take care of my sheep.  They did not have the nerve to go out and preach so they gathered together for the love feast (communion.)  Jesus assends into heaven and the continue to gather until Penticost where they and a little over 100 others were filled with the Holy Spirit.  This is the birth of the Church because the Holy Spirit gave them courage to go out and preach the Gospel.  We all know that they first went to the Jews.  The Church was Jewish in membership from aout 34AD to 49AD.  The bible does not indicate it but their seems to have been some Gentiles that were already in the Church, Cornelious it seems being the first.  There was no rule in the Church on whether all Church members were to be circumsized (to essentially become Jews).  Acts 15 was not a judgement to have gentiles be circumsized or not, but on where the Church was going.  Was it a Jewish sect or a new religion.  The decision came that it was apart from Judaism primarly because of the Law of Moses where the Law of Moses is waithing for the messiah.  This would have been a denial of Christ and his death.  With it it freed the Jewish Christians from having to keep the Law.  Now the Church did allow former Jews to keep the law not out of obediance but our of gratitude to their forefathers who with their actions God had granted the messiah to come from the Jewish people. 

With this it allowed Paul to go out into the mostly Gentile regions to evangelize.  When he went he ddi not change his evangelization technics or message.  It was what the Jewish Christians taught.  With all the Christian Church, he would go into an area that was both Pagan and Jewish and preach the good word.  If he got enough people intrested in what he was preaching he would have them gather and they would become catachist.  They would learn the doctines of the Church, its hiarchy, how to worship, do's and don'ts of recieving the Sacraments.  When they were advanced enough they were baptized and began to attend liturgy.  The priests were first the Apostle and his ontreoge.  When enough laity were gathered the priests from their ranks were chosen.  After that when the priest were stabilized in teachings so error would not be transmitted one of the priests was chosen by the Apostle to become a Bishop.  After this the Apostle went on to form another Church.  Sometimes the Apostle would have to come back as in what happened in Antioch Syria where Evodius, the second bishop of Antioch (St Peter the first) was martyred.  Peter came in and picked Ignatius as its third bishop, then ent back to Rome.  He left Linus as Romes Bishop.  When Peter returned to Rome shortly before Nero's persecution and altematly his Death.  When Peter returned Linus was replaced by Peter.  When Peter died Linus attended the Bishopric again.

Now when Paul went around creating churches he created them as he was taught, which was by the Jewish Church.  So if a Jewish Christian merchant was to come along in a caravan into mostly Gentile areas, and their was a Christian Church, if he was to attend he would understand what was going on.  The differances were the language and the differances in Culture.  For instance in the west to kneel is a sign of reverance where the Marionites (Arabs in Lebon) to sit is a sign of reverance.  Thus the whole church, wether from Jewish ancestory or Gentile History was united in liturgy and teachings.  Thus there was not 2 Churches but 1 united church.

The NT was written for those who could read.  It was meant mostly for the Clergy.  It was a written record to help insure that the the teachings of CHrist in certian areas was not to be corupted and was meant to go hand in hand with the Oral Traditions inline with the seat of Peter.  It was found that when a Church becomes seperated from Rome that even with
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From: CorkybobMay-3 1:02 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (3 of 54) 
 38199.3 in reply to 38199.1 

dear Bob,

bob>Hi Corky, above is a quote from you and I am trying to understand the Catholic stand on the bible, OT and NT. I assume the RCC accept the OT and that is was written by the direction of God, how am I doing

Yes with the idea that the OT was written with a differant covenant.  In the OT the Jews were the people of God.  They had to uphold the Law of Moses or God would forsake them and chose another people for the promised Missah to come from.  The Old Law stated that the people had to eat lamb at passover.  The New Law says that Gods people are to eat The Lamb of God for passover, which is every Sunday now.  The OT says that we are to worship God on the 7th Day which is the Sabbath in apprechiation of Gods creating us and the whole world.  The NT says we celebrate God on the 1st day, the Lords day bwecause of God freeing us from sin with His death and resurection on Sunday.  The OT is but a shadow of the NT.  The OT shows us the way and the NT tells us what God wants us to do.

bob> Also, you mention about the NT that the apostles and other writers of the bible were writing down oral traditions and that God directed their words, but they wrote down what they understood about oral traditions in the NT. Am I right

Somewhat.  They were writting down what was taught to them.  Inactualty the whole NT was written by the Apostles and Paul.  The Gospels of Mark was taught to mark by Peter and that of Luke was taught to him by Paul.  They probably did not even know that they were speaking or writting being Divinely Inspired.  They did know what they were writting down was the truth.  The Bible is only part of the are like cliff notes of the life of Christ.  If the bible says you better do something you have to do it.  If it says not to you don't do it.  If it doesn't say what to do you have to go to Oral Tradition where parts of the bible may allude to doing or not doing it.  Where protestants go wrong is when they insurt things saying that it is common sense such as don't call any man father.  Taken by face value you would have to say that you are to honor the husband of your mother and your mother.  That statement leaves nothing to ventue (which asort of contradicts my former statement.)  It is then conceptualized into call no man who is your spiritual father father, but what if this "Father" teaches only the word of the Father.  Does he qualify for not being called father?  To not to call him (the priest) father would be saying that he doesn't teach the word of the Father.

pax

corkybob

 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostMay-4 8:54 AM 
To: Corkybob  (4 of 54) 
 38199.4 in reply to 38199.2 

Amazingly In the last week or so I've been contemplating writting about how Catholics look at Christianity.

bob>Thanks Corky, that would be great. 

It all began shortly after creation.  Several Saints

bob>Who are the saints, man is not created yet?

who said they had spoke to God had stated that God had gathereed the Angels and said that His plan was to create man.  Man would sin and He would send His Son who would become man and die for mankind. 

bob>When God gives freewill, sin will be a natural product of that, but it's not God's fault. He also gave freewill to the angels, they sinned but why don't they need "His Son" for them? 

Lucifer the prince of the Angels (most glorious of the Angels) was incensed.  He said that he would adore God because in Gods glory he saw his reflection of his glory but he would never bow down to a man (Jesus.)  This started the revolt of the Angles with Micheal defeating Lucifer,  Lucifer then becomes Satan (one who blocks.)  With the plan God had picked Mary to be created sinless, like Adam and Eve were.  Sinless inorder for her to bare Christ in her womb.

bob>I agree, the jealousy of the angels led many of them to resent mankind. 

Jump to about 16 BC.  A woman by the name of Anne was married to a man named Joachim.  They had been married a long time and were childless, just as the parents of Issac and John the Baptist.  God granted them their prayer and Mary was born.  She grew up happy, lively, obedient, and religious.  My interptaion that because of Anne's and Joachim's age that they could not afford a dowry

bob>The dowry was given from the man to the fanily of the women he wanted to be his wife. It was to repay her family for her "loss" to the family. 

and Mary's holiness, they gave her to the Temple Priest to be a Temple Virgin ( these priest would offer up young religious girls as virgins so that Isaiah 7:14 could be fulfilled.)  They would bring old holy widowers to act as protectors for these young girls.  The priest would go to a girl and hold his hand over the girls head and wait for a sign from God to which widower would be matched up with that girl.  When the priest came to Mary and held his hand over the girls head a dove flew in and settled on Josephs staff.

bob>I never heard of this. 

This is when the Biblical narritive begin With in a year the the Arc-Angel visits Mary and Mary visits Elizabeth and She then becomes the Blessed Virgin Mary.  Within 2 years of the Temple Jesus is born.  The Blessed Virgin Mary promised God to remain a Virgin all of her life,

bob>We don't see that in the bible, where does this come from?

God fulfilled the promise in Isaiah 7:14.  She was planed to be the mother of God from before the creation of Man.  She had a choice to decline it.  She could have said no because if she was considered a adultress she would have been stoned. 

bob>She was married. When the dowry was agreed to, both signed a "marriage contract" and they were "married from that day on, even though the husband would not take her for about a year, as he was to prepare a place/house for her first, when completed he would go and get her and there would be a week long marriage celebration. She WAS NOT conceived out of marriage, she was married, just not with her husband yet. 

She said yes so she is the most heric and greatest person outside of Jesus who has ever lived for with her Yes she allowed the world to be saved.  This is why the Blessed Virgin Mary is worhiped in a hyper-dulia way, that is hero worshiped.

bob>She was a wonderful woman, she deserves respect and honor, but now worship, she's not God. 

Jump to the death of Christ.  With that the Apostles went into hiding.  Strike the Shepard and the Sheep will scatter.  Jesus rises from the dead and they gather again.  With this Jesus forgives Peter for his denial by making him the Shepard, feed my lambs and feed my sheep, take care of my sheep. 

bob>Peter did not scatter, he was the strongest of the 12, when Christ told Peter he would deny him 3 times, guess what, Peter is going to deny Him, this was done to fulfill prophecy, it was NOT peter's freewill choice to deny Christ, he had to. 

They did not have the nerve to go out and preach so they gathered together for the love feast (communion.) 

bob>"Communion" was done at passover, BEFORE the cross occured. It was part of the passover seder for 400 years. It was not a new celebration, Christ was telling them what it was done for all those years, to represent His sacrifice for mankind. 

Jesus assends into heaven and the continue to gather until Penticost where they and a little over 100 others were filled with the Holy Spirit. 

bob>I believe it was 3000. 

This is the birth of the Church because the Holy Spirit gave them courage to go out and preach the Gospel.

bob>They got the Holy Spirit then. 

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From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostMay-4 9:20 AM 
To: Corkybob  (5 of 54) 
 38199.5 in reply to 38199.3 

bob>Hi Corky, above is a quote from you and I am trying to understand the Catholic stand on the bible, OT and NT. I assume the RCC accept the OT and that is was written by the direction of God, how am I doing

Yes with the idea that the OT was written with a differant covenant.  In the OT the Jews were the people of God.  They had to uphold the Law of Moses or God would forsake them and chose another people for the promised Missah to come from.  The Old Law stated that the people had to eat lamb at passover.  The New Law says that Gods people are to eat The Lamb of God for passover, which is every Sunday now.  The OT says that we are to worship God on the 7th Day which is the Sabbath in apprechiation of Gods creating us and the whole world.  The NT says we celebrate God on the 1st day, the Lords day bwecause of God freeing us from sin with His death and resurection on Sunday.  The OT is but a shadow of the NT.  The OT shows us the way and the NT tells us what God wants us to do.

bob> Also, you mention about the NT that the apostles and other writers of the bible were writing down oral traditions and that God directed their words, but they wrote down what they understood about oral traditions in the NT. Am I right

Somewhat.  They were writting down what was taught to them.  Inactualty the whole NT was written by the Apostles and Paul.  The Gospels of Mark was taught to mark by Peter and that of Luke was taught to him by Paul.  They probably did not even know that they were speaking or writting being Divinely Inspired.  They did know what they were writting down was the truth.  The Bible is only part of the are like cliff notes of the life of Christ.  If the bible says you better do something you have to do it.  If it says not to you don't do it.  If it doesn't say what to do you have to go to Oral Tradition where parts of the bible may allude to doing or not doing it.  Where protestants go wrong is when they insurt things saying that it is common sense such as don't call any man father.  Taken by face value you would have to say that you are to honor the husband of your mother and your mother.  That statement leaves nothing to ventue (which asort of contradicts my former statement.)  It is then conceptualized into call no man who is your spiritual father father, but what if this "Father" teaches only the word of the Father.  Does he qualify for not being called father?  To not to call him (the priest) father would be saying that he doesn't teach the word of the Father.

bob>I would think Mark and Luke actually knew Christ, they were not of the 12, but they and almost everyone in the nation during that time actually saw and herd Christ. They were led to write those words by God. That's why it's  HOLY bible. Oral traditions are from man. I don't consider the "calling anyone else father" to be important. I know and we know there is only one God/Father, and my earthy dad is not on par with Him. Thanks
 


 

 

 
From: CorkybobMay-5 4:30 AM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (6 of 54) 
 38199.6 in reply to 38199.4 

dear Bob,

bob>Who are the saints, man is not created yet?

need to read it as a whole.  These particular Saints had licutions (God speaking to the person)  These were saints in the middle ages.

bob>When God gives freewill, sin will be a natural product of that, but it's not God's fault. He also gave freewill to the angels, they sinned but why don't they need "His Son" for them?

2 differant things Bob.  Sin is the rejection of Gods commands.  Freewill is deciding wether to obey Gods commands or not.  I think the problem you have is Luthers idea that mankind was inherently evil.  This is a grave error.  God created man.  He is incapable of creating evil.  Free will allows evil but it in itself is not evil.  It toke Adam and Eve to reject Gods rules in order to have sin come into the world.  If they had not sinned then we all would be as the Blessed Virgin Mary was, free of sin.

bob>I agree, the jealousy of the angels led many of them to resent mankind.

Not jealousy, pride.  Lucifer revolted because He would not bow to the Man God.  He would be bowing to a lesser creature in his his eyes.

bob>The dowry was given from the man to the fanily of the women he wanted to be his wife. It was to repay her family for her "loss" to the family.

If so this was only in Jewish Families because I know in the area it was the opposite.  The legeand of St Nicholas stems from him walking by a house with 3 daughters who were crying.  They were a poor family and all 3 daughters were set to wed but couldn't because they had no dowry.  St Nicholas toke Church funds (bag of money) and through it into the window.  St Nicholas was the Bishop in Asia Minor.

In the Jewish Encyclopedia it states just as in all other ancient cultures, the wife brings property to the husband.

bob>I never heard of this (temple virgin and joseph)

2nd century book.  The evangelium of James and the perpetual virginity of Mary.  Just as all non declared books of canon a Catholic does not need to view it as being historically but it has 2 things going for it.

#1  It was written when the things that it stated could be easily debunked, but doesn't seem to be.

#2  It seems to answer some questions that are not adressed in the bible.  Like Josephs mysterious disappearence from the Gospel narritive after Christ being found in the temple and the Blessed Virgins reply to the Arc-Angel Gabriel.

bob>We don't see that in the bible, where does this come from?

The angel says you will have a Son and you will name Him Jesus and he will be great in the eyes of men and will sit on the throne of David.  Ifit was going to be a normal marrage then she would assume that it was Josephs and her baby, but she doesn't.  She asks how can this be since I would need to have sex.  To be honest she says I know not man and it could be meant as saying I haven't had sex yet, but then it would not make sense because Gabriel hasn't said whe was pragnant and in response he says that she will be impragnanted by the Holy Spirit (for some when I say this they seem to think I am saying that the Holy Spirit fornicate with Mary.

bob>She was married. When the dowry was agreed to, both signed a "marriage contract" and they were "married from that day on, even though the husband would not take her for about a year, as he was to prepare a place/house for her first, when completed he would go and get her and there would be a week long marriage celebration. She WAS NOT conceived out of marriage, she was married, just not with her husband yet.

This is not in the bible. True the idea of a temple virgin also isn't but as I have stated the response to the Angel was not in accord with the question of the Angel.  As far as her conception, it would be as you say, but her husband by Jewish Law would not be Joseph but the Holy Spirit.  In such cases where a woman is married to one person but carrying anothers child it is up to the Husband to either denounce her, let her go, or take her in and the husband can take her home and be her gaurdian.  Regaurless of what the Husband does, he as a rightious man, can not have asex with her as long as the father of the Child lives.

bob>She was a wonderful woman, she deserves respect and honor, but now worship, she's not God.

Catholicism is older then the English Language.  Thus when it uses terms they are in the Old Usage.  Worhip is divided into 3 catagories.

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From: CorkybobMay-5 5:04 AM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (7 of 54) 
 38199.7 in reply to 38199.5 

dear Bob,

bob> Also, you mention about the NT that the apostles and other writers of the bible were writing down oral traditions and that God directed their words, but they wrote down what they understood about oral traditions in the NT. Am I right

Sort of.  All of the Apostles, with the coming of the Holy Spirit, were united in most issues of the faith.  This was a supernatural event and when teaching the Good News the Apostles would explain the reason for what Christ said and what He did.  Along the way Matthew, John, Paul, and Peter either wrote or had Mark and Luke write down the life of Jesus.  With this they did not always write down the reason for Jesus's actions or what he meant.  One event in which it doesn't seem to have a teaching for was the Gentile matter.  Afterwards the Church understood that the Law of Moses was not needed in the Christian Church so the Jewish portion of the Church could continue to observe it or not.  So I guess you would say that the bible is part of the Sacred Oral Tradition.

bob>I would think Mark and Luke actually knew Christ, they were not of the 12, but they and almost everyone in the nation during that time actually saw and herd Christ. They were led to write those words by God. That's why it's  HOLY bible. Oral traditions are from man. I don't consider the "calling anyone else father" to be important. I know and we know there is only one God/Father, and my earthy dad is not on par with Him. Thanks

There was a differance.  I doubt if Luke ever heard Christ because he ws greek.  Mark may have but there was a differance between the Apostles and the Deciples.  The Apostles were Jesus's closest friends and deciples.  The deciples were neophites, the catachumins.  Those that only had a vague idea of who Jesus was.

pax

corkybob

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostMay-8 9:45 AM 
To: Corkybob  (8 of 54) 
 38199.8 in reply to 38199.6 

 

bob>When God gives freewill, sin will be a natural product of that, but it's not God's fault. He also gave freewill to the angels, they sinned but why don't they need "His Son" for them?

2 differant things Bob.  Sin is the rejection of Gods commands.  Freewill is deciding wether to obey Gods commands or not.  I think the problem you have is Luthers idea that mankind was inherently evil.  This is a grave error.  God created man.  He is incapable of creating evil.  Free will allows evil but it in itself is not evil.  It toke Adam and Eve to reject Gods rules in order to have sin come into the world.  If they had not sinned then we all would be as the Blessed Virgin Mary was, free of sin.

bob>I think mankind has the nature to sin, not that he is evil, but he can do evil. Freewill gives us the power to reject God's will and even God. 

bob>The dowry was given from the man to the fanily of the women he wanted to be his wife. It was to repay her family for her "loss" to the family.

If so this was only in Jewish Families because I know in the area it was the opposite.  

bob>True God gave the Jews this special marriage concept so His Son would not be born outside of marriage, which He was not. 

In the Jewish Encyclopedia it states just as in all other ancient cultures, the wife brings property to the husband.

bob>What property does the wife bring? 

bob>I never heard of this (temple virgin and joseph)

2nd century book.  The evangelium of James and the perpetual virginity of Mary.  Just as all non declared books of canon a Catholic does not need to view it as being historically but it has 2 things going for it.

bob>It's not in the bible so we can't put much faith in it if any. Pagan religion had temple virgins who would have sex with those who came to the temple. 

#1  It was written when the things that it stated could be easily debunked, but doesn't seem to be.

#2  It seems to answer some questions that are not adressed in the bible.  Like Josephs mysterious disappearence from the Gospel narritive after Christ being found in the temple and the Blessed Virgins reply to the Arc-Angel Gabriel.

bob>What section of Josephus do you find that please? 

bob>We don't see that in the bible, where does this come from?

The angel says you will have a Son and you will name Him Jesus and he will be great in the eyes of men and will sit on the throne of David.  Ifit was going to be a normal marrage then she would assume that it was Josephs and her baby, but she doesn't.  She asks how can this be since I would need to have sex.  To be honest she says I know not man and it could be meant as saying I haven't had sex yet, but then it would not make sense because Gabriel hasn't said whe was pragnant and in response he says that she will be impragnanted by the Holy Spirit (for some when I say this they seem to think I am saying that the Holy Spirit fornicate with Mary.

bob>I don't have any issue with Mary knowing she conceived that night. 

bob>She was married. When the dowry was agreed to, both signed a "marriage contract" and they were "married from that day on, even though the husband would not take her for about a year, as he was to prepare a place/house for her first, when completed he would go and get her and there would be a week long marriage celebration. She WAS NOT conceived out of marriage, she was married, just not with her husband yet.

This is not in the bible.

bob>There were no temple virgins in the Jewish religion, She was married to Joseph when the dowry and the marriage contract were signed. 

bob>She was a wonderful woman, she deserves respect and honor, but now worship, she's not God.

Catholicism is older then the English Language.  Thus when it uses terms they are in the Old Usage.  Worhip is divided into 3 catagories.

#1 Dulia- Now known as to honor.  The respect you give your parenat is worship.

...[Message truncated]


 

 

 
From: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member IconMay-8 4:36 PM 
To: Corkybob  (9 of 54) 
 38199.9 in reply to 38199.6 

I think the problem you have is Luthers idea that mankind was inherently evil.  This is a grave error.  

Ginger>man is certainly not inherently good!

Romans3:10 there is no one who is righteous, no, not one!  That included Mary!

 

 

 

 

     

Psalm119:105 "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path"

 

 
From: CorkybobMay-8 11:17 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (10 of 54) 
 38199.10 in reply to 38199.8 

dear Bob,

bob>I think mankind has the nature to sin, not that he is evil, but he can do evil. Freewill gives us the power to reject God's will and even God.

Gods grace gives us the power to advoid sin.  Freewill just gives us the choice to not sin or sin.  The theology around it is that we were wounder by our being human, that is concieved with original sin.  Baptism forgives us of original sin and any other actual sin that we committed.  The problem is that Original Sin leaves like a scar on our souls that leads us to want to sin.  To resist any sin comes from the grace of God.  The Blessed Virgin Mary, who was over flowing with Gods graces was concieved without original sin, thus she did not have the compulsion to sin.

bob>What property does the wife bring?

Usually Jewelry.  Even now in the area the women wear the family wealth.  Arabs whether they are Muslim, Jewish, or Christian do this but it is usually in the primative areas.

bob>It's not in the bible so we can't put much faith in it if any. Pagan religion had temple virgins who would have sex with those who came to the temple.

The evangelium of James and the perpetual virginity of Mary was written in the mid 2nd century, less then 100 years after the fall of the Temple.  No one used the fact of no record temple virgins as a way to debunk it.  Again we did not know of dedicated celebacy from the Jews until we discovered the dead sea scrolls.  We find that the Essenes were a group of men that were celebate.  It is not out of the realm of posibility that Jewish Priests would have a small program that gathered young girls to be dedicated to God in the hopes that one will concieve outside of the normal way to bring in the messiah. with the facts that the Blessed Virgin answers the Angel in a very uncharictoristic way and Joseph seemingly dies early tends to prove the Temple Virgin issue.  There are a lot of facts that the Bible doesn't bring out because it wasn't meant to bring these things out.  What would be more important is that the bible does not denie this.

bob>I don't have any issue with Mary knowing she conceived that night.

The issue is that the tells teh BVM that she will have a son that she will named Jesus and he will be great in the eyes of God who will rule on his father David's throne forever.  She is in somewhere between her year long engagement/marrage she would think that Gabriel was talking about her and Joseph having the great child.  That would be a normal marrage, but it doesn't seem to be.  He concern was that she would have to have sex in order to have a child  That would indicate that the marrage was anything but normal.  Her concerns were that she would have to have sex with a man.  The Angel hasn't said anything about when she would get pragnant.  This is when he reveals to her that she would concieve by the power of the Holy Spirit.

bob>There were no temple virgins in the Jewish religion, She was married to Joseph when the dowry and the marriage contract were signed.

There was nothing about male chastity yet you have the Essenes who we find after the archiological dig in their site, that all had a vow of chastity.  The fact that nothing is written about Temple Virgins does not mean that there were no Temple Virgins.

Other things that I found out later such as James the Brother of the Lord was 96 years old when he died.  He died in 63 AD.  This would mean that he was born in 33 BC.  He was 33 years older then Jesus and 17 years older then the BVM.  He would have been 66 when Christ was cruxified.  He could have been Josephs first wife's Son, but he is also known as the son of Alpheus or Clophas, depending on your language.  St Jerome, the greatest translator in the early Church says that Alpheas was Josephs brother, which would indicate that James was the cousin of Jesus.  It also says that Joseph was in his 60's or 70's when he married the BVM.  This in itself would indicate that it was not a "normal marrage.  Nothing was said in the bible about a dowry or marrage contract.  Doesn't mean that there was one or there wasn't one.  It is just that you say that the concept of the Temple Virgin isn't in the bible yet you go on to talk about the dowry and Marrage contract that isn't in the bible either.

bob>Only God is to be worshiped. Mary can be honored, praised and so on, but not worshiped.

Whwen you honor your parants youi are worshiping them.  Its called dulia.  For the BVM we worship her in a Hyper-dulia way.  That is hero worship.  At mass we worship Jesus Christ in the way you should worship God that is in the Latia way.

Your idea of worship is only about 100 years old where only Latia is used for worship.

Haven't you ever hears of the Cockney Englishmansay to the upper class person your worship.  "Hey your worship could you lend a poor beggar a pence for a bit to drink?"

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