Political And Economic Issues -  Paper Gold/Silver vs Physical Gold/Silve (459 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostMar-18 9:32 AM 
To: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (1 of 39) 
 40467.1 
ETF "Paper" Gold and Silver vs Physical Gold and Silver
 
Paper gold/silver is a financial way to buy and sell gold/silver on the market without ever owning any, it's called an ETF or Exchange Traded Fund and there are several. These ETF's  allow gold/silver to be traded as if it's a stock instead of a physical asset. As you know, stocks are paper, there is no physical asset connected with a stock, it's supposed paper ownership in a company. Gold can't have paper ownership, it's a physical thing, one has it, one holds it to own it, but the ETF was created as so brokers could trade it as a paper stock and make money. There is more ETF paper gold/silver money than there is physical gold/silver in the world.  
 
We have seen stock values plummet day after day, which occurs when someone sells a paper stock and someone else buys it at ever falling prices. Since stock is not a physical thing, it's trading can be done in a second completely online, in the cyber world, as there is nothing to change hands, even the stock certificates don't change hands, the brokers supposedly hold them. Gold/silver, in the paper ETF form is also traded online and since the paper ETF isn't a physical asset, the trade can occur in a second too. So, we have two gold/silver markets. We have the paper ETF market, which is not connected to actual gold and silver, and we have the physical gold/silver market, in which someone buys it and keeps it. Physical gold can't go completely away like paper ETF gold/silver can, as physical gold/silver actually exists. 
 
2008 vs 2020 Market Crash
In 2008 the world had a banking "Mortgage Backed Security" crash, which caused the stock market crash as well and also brought down "paper gold/silver" however, the physical gold/silver pretty much stayed out of it. There was a run on gold/sivler coins at the US Mint, which makes millions of them every year and it ran out, so it was hard to find any physical gold/silver to buy and the price was way above the ETF paper gold/silver price. This is what's also occurring today in 2020, gold and silver brokers are not selling real gold and silver at the paper EFT gold/silver spot prices. I checked with a few gold/silver brokers today, one is out but is buying at the low EFT paper prices, one is not selling his gold and silver at all, but is buying below the ETF spot prices, another is selling 1oz Silver Eagles for $19, and the current spot price is $12.75. As you can see, the physical gold/silver market is not attached to the paper ETF gold/silver market. Brokers will buy at or even below these very low paper ETF prices, but they won't sell for anything close to them.  
 
I expect the current ETF paper gold/silver spot price to decline as long as the stock market does and thus margin calls continue and quick money has to be raised to fund market calls. We can expect the physical gold/silver market to be dis-attached from the paper ETF gold/silver market. When this occurred in 2008, paper gold went from it's all time high of $1000 and dropped 30% to $700 and within a year was back at it's $1000 all time high, then in the next 2 years to a new all time high of $1950, it doubled from it's all time high in 3 years. This is what I am expecting for gold and silver this time. However, I don't expect the stock market to comeback to it's all time high of 29,000. This time, 2020, huge companies must continue on with new loans from the federal government, these loans have to be paid back, when the COVID-19 crisis is over, many companies will arise from this with much more debt, so even if they continue on, they are not in the financial condition they were before hand, so their bottom lines will be hurt which keeps the stock price from returning where it was. 
 
In any event, the paper markets of stocks and gold/silver will run their course, physical gold/silver will remain detached from paper gold/silver and I think it will be like 2008 again for gold/silver. Many stock advisers were waiting for the shoe to fall for stocks, thinking it would come down and that would present a good buying oppertunity expecting the market to come back up again soon, as it's done before, I was thinking this too, but I wasn't thinking of a 2008 crisis. 
 
  
Physical gold vs physical silver
In 2008 gold dropped 30% from it's all time high of $1000 to $700 and then set a new all time high 3 years later of $1950, up 2.75 x increase from it's $700 low. Silver in 2008 dropped 50% from it's all time high of $20 to $10 and in three years set a new all time high of $50, a 5x increase from it's $10 low. Both gold and silver produced great returns in just 3 years. 2020 is looking like 2008 again, in my opinion it's not time to sell your gold/silver, but a time to hold or buy more if you can find it at the spot price or so.  
 
Use this link for the 20 year silver price
...[Message truncated]


 

 
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From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostMar-18 9:33 AM 
To: Len (AryehLeib613)  (2 of 39) 
 40467.2 in reply to 40467.1 
ETF "Paper" Gold and Silver vs Physical Gold and Silver
 
Paper gold/silver is a financial way to buy and sell gold/silver on the market without ever owning any, it's called an ETF or Exchange Traded Fund and there are several. These ETF's  allow gold/silver to be traded as if it's a stock instead of a physical asset. As you know, stocks are paper, there is no physical asset connected with a stock, it's supposed paper ownership in a company. Gold can't have paper ownership, it's a physical thing, one has it, one holds it to own it, but the ETF was created as so brokers could trade it as a paper stock and make money. There is more ETF paper gold/silver money than there is physical gold/silver in the world.  
 
We have seen stock values plummet day after day, which occurs when someone sells a paper stock and someone else buys it at ever falling prices. Since stock is not a physical thing, it's trading can be done in a second completely online, in the cyber world, as there is nothing to change hands, even the stock certificates don't change hands, the brokers supposedly hold them. Gold/silver, in the paper ETF form is also traded online and since the paper ETF isn't a physical asset, the trade can occur in a second too. So, we have two gold/silver markets. We have the paper ETF market, which is not connected to actual gold and silver, and we have the physical gold/silver market, in which someone buys it and keeps it. Physical gold can't go completely away like paper ETF gold/silver can, as physical gold/silver actually exists. 
 
2008 vs 2020 Market Crash
In 2008 the world had a banking "Mortgage Backed Security" crash, which caused the stock market crash as well and also brought down "paper gold/silver" however, the physical gold/silver pretty much stayed out of it. There was a run on gold/sivler coins at the US Mint, which makes millions of them every year and it ran out, so it was hard to find any physical gold/silver to buy and the price was way above the ETF paper gold/silver price. This is what's also occurring today in 2020, gold and silver brokers are not selling real gold and silver at the paper EFT gold/silver spot prices. I checked with a few gold/silver brokers today, one is out but is buying at the low EFT paper prices, one is not selling his gold and silver at all, but is buying below the ETF spot prices, another is selling 1oz Silver Eagles for $19, and the current spot price is $12.75. As you can see, the physical gold/silver market is not attached to the paper ETF gold/silver market. Brokers will buy at or even below these very low paper ETF prices, but they won't sell for anything close to them.  
 
I expect the current ETF paper gold/silver spot price to decline as long as the stock market does and thus margin calls continue and quick money has to be raised to fund market calls. We can expect the physical gold/silver market to be dis-attached from the paper ETF gold/silver market. When this occurred in 2008, paper gold went from it's all time high of $1000 and dropped 30% to $700 and within a year was back at it's $1000 all time high, then in the next 2 years to a new all time high of $1950, it doubled from it's all time high in 3 years. This is what I am expecting for gold and silver this time. However, I don't expect the stock market to comeback to it's all time high of 29,000. This time, 2020, huge companies must continue on with new loans from the federal government, these loans have to be paid back, when the COVID-19 crisis is over, many companies will arise from this with much more debt, so even if they continue on, they are not in the financial condition they were before hand, so their bottom lines will be hurt which keeps the stock price from returning where it was. 
 
In any event, the paper markets of stocks and gold/silver will run their course, physical gold/silver will remain detached from paper gold/silver and I think it will be like 2008 again for gold/silver. Many stock advisers were waiting for the shoe to fall for stocks, thinking it would come down and that would present a good buying oppertunity expecting the market to come back up again soon, as it's done before, I was thinking this too, but I wasn't thinking of a 2008 crisis. 
 
  
Physical gold vs physical silver
In 2008 gold dropped 30% from it's all time high of $1000 to $700 and then set a new all time high 3 years later of $1950, up 2.75 x increase from it's $700 low. Silver in 2008 dropped 50% from it's all time high of $20 to $10 and in three years set a new all time high of $50, a 5x increase from it's $10 low. Both gold and silver produced great returns in just 3 years. 2020 is looking like 2008 again, in my opinion it's not time to sell your gold/silver, but a time to hold or buy more if you can find it at the spot price or so.  
 
Use this link for the 20 year silver price
...[Message truncated]


 

 

 
From: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member IconMar-18 10:26 AM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (3 of 39) 
 40467.3 in reply to 40467.1 

I see that silver is $12/oz. Are you saying the companies that sell coins will not sell at the spot price?  I was thinking of buying some more coins.

 

 

 

     

Psalm119:105 "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path"

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostMar-18 12:45 PM 
To: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (4 of 39) 
 40467.4 in reply to 40467.3 

I see that silver is $12/oz. Are you saying the companies that sell coins will not sell at the spot price?  I was thinking of buying some more coins.

bob>They won't sell for that, but call them and let me know what they sell for, 1oz silver american eagles. The "paper" gold/silver price IS NOT what you can buy them for! There is a shortage of gold and silver coins, but the "paper" and gold and silver isn't based on supply and demand, that's why that market has more gold and silver contracts than there is gold and silver in the world. There is no logic to it, it's just a way for the brokers to sell and collect fees on the market. If you were to buy some coins today, it will NEVER hit the "paper" gold/silver market, we really have two separate markets, the "paper" gold and silver and the physical gold/silver. We bought metals for what's going on today, as the markets continue to fall, it will also create margin calls on the "paper" gold and silver contracts, but let that bother you, the physical market is strong and will get stronger. In the 2008 market crash, "paper" gold and silver went down and then came back up to new record highs, gold went up 275%, silver went up 500%, this is why we bought it, just keep it locked up in a safe place. 

bob>The largest gold/silver dealer in Tulsa has sold completely out and has closed till "at least march 30", they were selling 1oz silver coins at $19 and ran out. Don't worry about the "paper" gold/silver market, hold on to your metals, we bought it for times like this. 

 


 

  • Edited March 18, 2020 5:52 pm  by  Bob (Bobbylee7)
 

 
From: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member IconMar-18 1:21 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (5 of 39) 
 40467.5 in reply to 40467.4 

>I see that silver is $12/oz. Are you saying the companies that sell coins will not sell at the spot price?  I was thinking of buying some more coins.

bob>They won't sell for that, but call them and let me know what they sell for, 1oz silver american eagles.

Ginger>Well, phooey.  I looked on line and you are right--they are selling for $19 which is not spot price.

Bob>The "paper" gold/silver price IS NOT what you can buy them for! There is a shortage of gold and silver coins, but the "paper" and gold and silver isn't based on supply and demand, that's why that market has more gold and silver contracts than there is gold and silver in the world. There is no logic to it, it's just a way for the brokers to sell and collect fees on the market.

Ginger>Well, that's not nice.

Bob>If you were to buy some coins today, it will NEVER hit the "paper" gold/silver market, we really have two separate markets, the "paper" gold and silver and the physical gold/silver. We bought metals for what's going on today, as the markets continue to fall, it will also create margin calls on the "paper" gold and silver contracts, but let that bother you, the physical market is strong and will get stronger. In the 2008 market crash, "paper" gold and silver went down and then came back up to new record highs, gold went up 275%, silver went up 500%, this is why we bought it, just keep it locked up in a safe place. 

Ginger>I am trying to get my 3 sons to purchase silver coins but I don't have any takers. One said he is buying stock in one that sells carona test kits. 

 

 

 

     

Psalm119:105 "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path"

 

 
From: Bike (URALTOURIST1) DelphiPlus Member IconMar-19 2:09 PM 
To: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (6 of 39) 
 40467.6 in reply to 40467.3 

Why not buy ingot or bars of precious metals?  They are readily converted to currency of the moment at par value pretty easily.  Coins are just pretty metals, why pay the premium to make metals pretty?

 

Warren
 
USCG Engineer 1961-1982
 
RN, Acute Care specialist 1986-2008
 
 
 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostMar-19 2:17 PM 
To: Bike (URALTOURIST1) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (7 of 39) 
 40467.7 in reply to 40467.6 

Why not buy ingot or bars of precious metals?  They are readily converted to currency of the moment at par value pretty easily.  Coins are just pretty metals, why pay the premium to make metals pretty?

bob>Do you own any gold/silver in any form? I am a metals bug, I accept gold/silver coins when I sell something, but it's a rare occasion when it happens. I won't accept ingot's as they have more antique value than gold value and during hard times, antiques are worthless as they are right now. Ingots or bars can't be certified or verified or backed by the US government, so I never know if there is lead at the core instead of gold/silver, I don't know the purity, I don't know the weight. With US Eagle gold/silver coins, they are certified as to weight and purity and if anyone fakes them it's counterfeiting of US money and the fed will get them! 


 

 

 
From: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member IconMar-19 6:47 PM 
To: Bike (URALTOURIST1) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (8 of 39) 
 40467.8 in reply to 40467.6 

Too expensive for me in that form. Last time I purchased was 2011. 

 

 

 

     

Psalm119:105 "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path"

 

 
From: Bike (URALTOURIST1) DelphiPlus Member IconMar-20 2:11 PM 
To: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (9 of 39) 
 40467.9 in reply to 40467.8 

So Krugerands or Silver Dollars are so much cheaper than ingot gold or silver?

 

Warren
 
USCG Engineer 1961-1982
 
RN, Acute Care specialist 1986-2008
 
 
 

 
From: Ginger (TGANNON) DelphiPlus Member IconMar-20 2:29 PM 
To: Bike (URALTOURIST1) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (10 of 39) 
 40467.10 in reply to 40467.9 

So Krugerands or Silver Dollars are so much cheaper than ingot gold or silver?

Ginger>for me, they will be easier to spend if it ever came down to that. That, and it will be easier for my 3 sons to divide it once I and hubby pass away.

 

 

 

     

Psalm119:105 "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path"

 

 
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