General Discussion -  My Vision Quest Experience.... (138 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
From: Cherokee21 DelphiPlus Member Icon9/4/07 6:06 PM 
To: All  (1 of 21) 

Hi folks. This is long but gave me a laugh.
A friend posted about a net group who were selling
new age vision quest goober stuff. She said they
needed a wake-up call from the NDN community.
When I penned my short e-mail, I had no idea I
was gonna get the spirits sent after

FYI: The response is pretty danged long.


Here is my letter to the place.


I am an American Indian newspaper reporter. I
need to let you know how offended I am by your Web site.
How can you justify taking sacred Indian rituals and
prostituting them for your own gain?

Have you ever talked to an Indian and asked the
history and honor behind the sweat lodge and vision

I know this e-mail may mean little to you because
I am not giving you any money for your cause, but know
that I am not the only one upset with this whoring of
our culture and ways.

One question before I go, could I ask where the
cave pictures are taken? Is it on private or public
land? It is beautiful.

Thanks for listening;


AND my psychic scalping....hehehehe

Hello Tim,

As a reporter, you have a responsibility to lay
aside your personal judgments and assumptions and be
open to hearing both sides of the story. Your unjustified
attack (as well as others who do not know what
they’re talking about) created a result which was not of
reaction, but one of action. I do not take
unjustified and unsolicited character assassinations lightly,
nor do I handle idiocy with much tact or grace. So I
remained silent until the triple Scorpio in me
had a chance to control the urge to come at you (and
all the goons who have come before you) in a way which
would leave your head spinning.

As I said, you do not know me… so Tim, perhaps
you should be aware of exactly WHO it is you’re
attacking and talking to. Despite your self-proclaimed
judgments, I think you underestimate me. I did
not just roll out of bed one day and suddenly
‘decide’ that I was going to do the work I am doing and
will continue to do, until it is no longer required of
me! In fact, I’ve been in training in ways you
can’t even imagine, for YEARS, since the day I took up the
But who is this worthy foe, you have so foolishly
called to the battlefield? Better to know your
enemies (since you have decided I am one- I’m not
really… but we’ll get into that later!) before you weaken
your blade with ignorance and foolish pride!

Allow me to introduce myself: I am Virginia Levy-
I am neither white, black, red, nor yellow! I have
ice-green eyes and blonde hair, but that can
easily be purchased in a bottle, so that does not make me
unique, or Scandinavian (which is a TRIBE!).
Although I was born in American, and therefore am a NATIVE
American, I personally claim no allegiance to any
one people or land; for I am a spiritual being having
human experiences. Not the other way around. I am
not Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Native American,
good, bad, evil, right, wrong, smart, stupid, or any
other adjective lower conscious beings like to paste
upon others before getting to know them. When I wear
my blue jeans, spurs, chaps, cowboy hat, and jump
upon my horse, I am no more a cowgirl than I am an Indian
when I take off my wrap inside my lodge, wearing
nothing but a choker with the cougar claw that came from
a cougar who attacked me! (Which, btw, according to
‘your people’s’ teachings, I EARNED the
right to wear, given my background, experience, and insights!)

I am NOT a ‘wanna-be’… I just AM! I do not
care to belong to anyone people, race or nature of origin
which does not have the highest good in mind for
ALL consciousness. In fact, given the atrocities of
humanity since the days of its conception, I have
a hard time even wanting to admit I am a human!

I am no more responsible for the death of your
ancestors because of the color of my skin, than
you are responsible for the Holocaust which
slaughtered millions of my father’s ancestors!

I do not use teachings which are worn-out, stale,
ineffective, or just plain stupid to guide my
charge. I use whatever works in the moment, which comes
from Source, NOT others! I refuse to give credit to
any one man, woman, child, gender, origin, or religion
for ALL is within ME. You may call this a new-age,
crystal-crunching-twinkie-flake, just add milk,
sort of thinking, but I call it enlightenment!

To help you better understand the one you attack,
now that you know all that I am NOT, it is time to
clarify that which I am: Tim, I am a SPIRITUAL MASTER
(but make no mistake about it… I am not like any
master you’ve ever met before!). I teach mastery- I
teach others how to raise the dead, heal the sick, feed
the multitude, and still be good in bed. If that
offends you- I offer no apology, but am forced to wonder
why you are so easily threatened by someone so
harmless as me? There is a saying in our world, “That which
is real cannot be threatened, that which is unreal
does not exist!” May I suggest you contemplate the
depth of this statement before calling another spiritual
master to the battlefield?

Deep breath… there is much I have to say to
you…forgive me if it comes out scattered. After a
week of contemplating your attack and 15 others that I
received within a 48 hour period, years of
unexpressed feelings and thoughts come spewing forth…

Let’s look at the facts before we start
slinging verbal bullets at one another, shall we?

1-My site CLEARLY states that everything we
do is NON TRADITIONAL! This is stressed with everyone
who inquires about our services. I do NOT care to
teach others how to kill a buffalo, share stories about
the ancient ones, or dance around a fire with a
feather in my hair and war paint on my face. No one who I
work with cares to learn about native teachings
(Thanks to people like yourself, you are losing a
majority of people who would find great value in
learning ‘the ways’! Even your own people
don’t want to learn them and are abandoning ‘the ways’
in droves! I live near a reservation… many of my friends
are Hopi, Apache, and Yavapai! Most of them haven’t
got a clue what the hell a sweatlodge is, or a vision
I have MANY Native Americans and traditionalist
who LOVE me, the work I’m doing, and totally
support me in continuing sharing what I know because I EMPOWER

2-Which, by the way, not that it matters,
but for the record: I was TRAINED in the traditional
ways… Grey Hawk, Basil George, Red Hawk,
Ted-Kills-in-the-Fog, Patricia Wisdom Keeper,
ChippaWolf and his Heyoka brother, Donnie-
Chief-Wampum-Full-of-Shit, etc… so be careful
who you attack, my friend. Just because I appear
‘white’ on the outside, does not mean I am not red on the
Nor, does it mean I even care to share what I
know in regards to those early days of my training. I
also trained (in person) with Jesus! Does that make me
a Christian? Not a chance! I have a background in
Middle Eastern teachings, too- does that make me a
Buddhist or Yogi? Hardly!

3-But, thanks to a drunk Indian who
threatened to burn my house down for honoring the
‘traditional ways’, years ago, I have learned that tradition
is nothing more than a carefully devised weapon used
to create separation (NOT unity!) I also learned
that it is just a smokescreen for cowards who are afraid
of change. Those who attack others for invoking
change and challenging others to grow, and who are
making MAJOR contributions in the world, are obviously
coming from an unenlightened, disempowered, lower
vibrating, penially challenged, anal retentive, knuckle
dragging, Neanderthal level of consciousness. They are of
no consequence to me- and are powerless in the world
I live in.

4-Angel Light Lodge was created FOR
spiritual MASTERS! How I run MY lodge that I BUILT (which
cost ME $13,000.00, a lot of literal BLOOD, SWEAT and
TEARS!) is MY business! The ONLY thing which is
remotely ‘native American’ is the dream catchers my
daughter and I created to decorate the outside.
Which, we created, only because they were pretty and
complimented the lodge’s overall appearance.
(When is the last time you ever heard of an
air-conditioner inside a ‘native American’ sweatlodge, or a
surround-sound stereo system with meditation
chairs, carpeted flooring and ambient lighting?)

5-It totally and literally rocks! It’s a
beautiful work of ART, that is presented as a
NON-TRADITIONAL cosmic sweatlodge for SPIRITUAL
MASTERS, that I created for the purpose of
providing a place for myself and others of like mind to go to
cleanse, pray, contemplate the fuzzy naval, detox
and withdraw from the insanity of the world of

6-If you have a problem with that, well-
that’s YOUR problem! NOT mine! If I worried about all
the people I might ‘offend’ or who might have a
‘problem’ with what I’m doing, I’d not of made it this
far! Nor would I have helped others empower themselves so
much so that they thank me over and over again for my
services, commitment, courage, and tenacity! Can
you say the same? You’re a ‘reporter’, Tim…
how many lives
have YOU changed with TRUTH? How much of what you
write about is just narrow-minded, opinionated BS
that is etched in personal agendas and shadowed by
egotistical delusions of grandeur? How much of
what you’re doing is hinged completely in the past,
which no longer exists, but you (and others like you)
strive so hard to keep alive thereby totally
disempowering ‘your people’ AND yourselves! (PLEASE- get in
the 21st century already!!!) You’re using a computer
that was created by two ‘WHITE’ guys in a garage!
Before you go attacking others for using what works, perhaps
you better change into your breechcloth with its sexy
butt-flap and erect your tipi or go build your
own Hogan?

7-Also, for the record, I’ve had other
traditional shamans run my lodge (who have their
own lodges and wanted to give mine a try because
it’s so cool) and participate in my lodges, who
absolutely LOVED it! Why? Well, because for one thing, you
can STILL get amazing results despite the fact that
it breaks every ‘rule’ out there, superimposed
by self-appointed false authorities who are really
just cowardly control freaks who don’t know enough
to control themselves. They believe that the path to
creating security within themselves is by going
around trying to control and manipulate externals and
others thru fear and guilt! My lodge can be run whenever
I want. I am not bound by weather issues, or
I never have to cancel a lodge and this already
puts me way ahead for I can honor my word when I tell
others I am holding a lodge, and am not forced to
compromise my integrity as a victim of externals.

Now then, you brought up the issue of origin of
sweatlodges and vision quests… so, since this
can of worms has been opened, let’s see how savvy YOU

1-Sweatlodges have been used by EVERY single
culture known to man for THOUSANDS of YEARS,
going back to BEFORE the days of the Roman Empire .
(Which was long before a Native American was EVER even
heard of!) Sweathouses and sweatlodges can be found in
records of the French, Swedish, Africans,
English, Irish, Romans, Aborigines, Russians, Asians…
etc. I hate to break it to you, Tim, but guess what?
‘YOUR’ people (god- why do I hate that term so much-
like,I’m not a ‘people’, too? Or that by you
invoking this separation, it somehow lowers me beneath you and
your race? What’s the matter with this jargon? Are
we not ALL spiritual beings having human experiences?
Are we not ALL a part of the human ‘race’? Why do
you insist that any of us are separate from another? But I
digress… sorry- just had to throw that in
there, while I was on a roll…) eh hem… where was I? Oh
yes: Native Americans do NOT have a monopoly on spiritual
teachings, which are designed with the purpose of
empowering and evolving the soul! Nor do the
Native Americans have the corner market on Sweatlodges
OR Vision Quests!

Since you seem to think you know so much about me
and the work I do, here’s a little eye-opening
education on the origin of Vision Quests:

1- Like the sweatlodge, Vision Quests have
ALSO been used for THOUSANDS of years, dating back to
thebiblical times! Jesus went out on a 40 DAY vision
quest! (I don’t recall ever hearing about a
single ‘native’ American lasting that long!) Moses
went on a quest! Eli jah went on a quest… Buddha went on
a quest…. Good lord! Are you seriously THAT
naïve as to think that ‘your’ people have the corner
market on Vision Quests, and that others who may not have
the same colored skin as yours, aren’t permitted to
evolve spiritually in this timeless tool of
(Tim, it’s just a TOOL! Get over yourself
2-Our quests are run as a MASTERS VISION
QUEST ADVENTURE! This has NOTHING to do with ‘your’
people’s teachings (err… there’s that damned word
again) nor is it any of YOUR business. We’re not doing
anything illegal nor are we obligated to do any of the
work we do for free!

Ah… which brings up another opportunity for
enlightenment that I can’t help but delve into,
that has been a sore spot with me for years:

1- The depth of my spirituality is NOT
measured by the emptiness of my pocketbook! At one time, I
foolishly believed the was the opposite was true,
until others clearly demonstrated that if I did
not place value on the work I was doing, neither
would they. Not to mention the fact that not a single
person, on whose behalf I labored tirelessly,
that I do so with the highest intentions, ever thought
that I might need to FEED myself and my daughter once in
awhile! Nor did they care when I was at risk of
losing my home because those who I attracted into my
sacred space were of the same poverty-consciousness
mindset as I was… so it took losing everything I had
and reducing myself to ONE meal every THREE days (so
my daughter would at least have enough to eat!) for
me to snap the hell out of it and get a clue!

2-People only value what they pay for. We
open our HOME to complete strangers- one’s ability
to pay well for our services, not only covers our
expenses involved in being able to continue to provide
this invaluable service, but it also ensures that some
nutcase will not show up at our door, uninvited!
(I have witnessed firsthand what has happened to
local shamans in the area who hold their lodges open to
the public for a donation… not only do they
oftentimes not even get donated a decent amount in which to
cover their time, experience, and expenses, but
they’ve also had to deal with people who were a danger to
themselves and others!)

3-I have also been a HUGE advocate of ALL
spiritual teachers demanding and receiving some
monetary form of exchange for their services! By
them being paid, it does NOT take away from their
work! In fact, it only adds to it! Even the shamans in the
tribe are PAID- yet, sadly, in this day and age,
they are starving to death because of this worn out
belief that they will accept a chicken, or a hide or
tobacco in exchange for what took them years to learn and
master! On top of that, they CANNOT pay their
light bill with tobacco! (You can thank Grey Hawk for
teaching me THAT lesson!) These wonderful,
beautiful souls, who give so much of themselves, have been
reduced to the status of beggars, and devalued by
society for far too damned long! It’s about
time people get off their butts and recognize that if
they want to know what we do- they need to PAY for it!
Not with stupid, meaningless trinkets, but with
cold-hard cash!

4- A good spiritual teacher cannot get a
‘normal’ job… though their résumé may be impressive,
it will NOT go over well in third-dimensional reality! (I
know, I’ve tried!)

5-If you foolishly think we are getting rich
here, think again! Our expenses to operate this
place so that others will have a nice place to come to
(at no additional charge) cost us $5,000.00 a month!
We purposely selected this house with our questers
in mind, so they’d not have to spend upwards of
350.00 a night at a local B&B during the time they’re
not out on the quest! Do you honestly think we’re doing
so many quests a month as to be able to even come
close to breaking even? Get serious! We don’t put
just anyone out just because they wave a few dollars
under our noses… in fact, not that it’s any of your
business, but because I’m so damned sick of
hearing the BS from people like yourself, I figured I
better set the record straight: I am Arizona’s ONLY
certified Master female farrier (horse shoer!) and Michael
is one of only 2 male master farriers in the valley!
We shoe over 350 head of horses every 6 weeks, work
from 5 am till midnight 7 days a week- so when we do
an occasional quest, or sweatlodge, or any other
spiritual service that we offer, we have to fit
it into our already overflowing schedule. I’ve
actually turned people away because they weren’t
ready… and a majority of those who do come, are given the fear
talk from hell before they ever sign up!

6- Where we hold our quests is our personal
business. The secretiveness of the locations
ensures our questers complete solitude. This information
is given out on a need-to-know bases. We are
breaking no laws- and do not disturb the land. In fact, the
spirits of the caves and other sacred locations
we use, call to me ALL the time! I would not do
anything out of integrity to dishonor those individuals on
the other side who are helping those who are sent to

Now that I’ve spoken my piece, Tim, if you can
find anything in our program which truly misleads
others into believing that what we are doing is of
Native American origin, let me know and I’ll change
it. I will not change the name of our quest, or the
sweatlodge- for that’s what they are. You use a
cell phone, drive a car, and use a computer to work
on…they are what they are. They belong to no one
person anymore than the air you breathe does. Air is
air…quests are quest. To call either by a different
name is misleading. However, if you can find anything
which says that they will learn anything about true
traditional ways- find it, tell me about it, then
I will change it… for I NEVER want ANYONE to ever
confuse me with a ‘people’ that attacks,
assumes, and presumes they own something which does not belong
to anyone!

Now that we have this out of the way… why
don’t you call me, come see the lodge for yourself, and
REALLY get to know who I am? All this ego-based bs is
just that… silly childish crap… and yes, the caves
are beautiful. If you’d like, I’d be happy to
take you out to them. I don’t own them- anyone can go to
them- no one does, though… except maybe a couple of
questers now and then.

Tim- you might just find (because I sense it in
your nature) that I am not a horrible, rotten,
culture-whoring vulture. Everything I have is
because of a LOT of hard work, blood, sweat and tears.
All who come to me, whether it be a horse that needs
shoes, or a seeker who needs guidance, knows that I will no
more shoe the horse for free than I will guide them on
their spiritual path for free- however, if I do a
lousy job and lame the horse, you’re
damn-skippy there will be a complete and total refund- no questions
asked. I’ve always taken pride in the work I
do…perhaps that’s why it pisses me off when others
like yourself, fail to recognize it.

Expect to Empower Extraordinary Experiences!
Blessings & Love,
Virginia Levy

The Academy of Spiritual Self Mastery
Proudly Presents:
The Masters Vision Quest Adventures; Angel Light
Lodge; The Secret Formula: Spiritual InnerViews &
"The Master Key Keepers & the Doppelganger" by VL Levy

 Reply   Options 

From: Madam D (MadamD) DelphiPlus Member Icon9/22/07 12:50 PM 
To: Cherokee21 DelphiPlus Member Icon  (2 of 21) 
 2234.2 in reply to 2234.1 

...holy Spirit beads bat man....
You done did it now..tee hee….pissed off her blond self...

self proclaimed Spirit master, arrogant...I have yet to meet a master who calls them selves "master"...or an elder who tells you they are a Spiritual elder…

$2000 for a vision quest....I would be afraid that they would pull some kinda bull shit, and someone is gonna get hurt…seems to always happen when you fool with the ancestors….


From: Coconut Queen (JEANNE2469) DelphiPlus Member Icon9/22/07 10:03 PM 
To: Madam D (MadamD) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (3 of 21) 
 2234.3 in reply to 2234.2 

I know you're right about that one - a "master" usually doesn't think of himself or herself as a "master." 

Doesn't it seem like the more you know, your realize the more you don't know?  I think true masters area kind of like that - the more they know, the more they realize that there's so much more to learn.  Plus, a true master is usually too humble to think of himself or herself as a master.



MiscHonolulu029.jpg Sun Behind The Palms picture by coconutqueen_hawaii

KamehamehaStatueandWaikiki024.jpg King Kamehameha Statue Downtown Honolulu picture by coconutqueen_hawaii



From: Madam D (MadamD) DelphiPlus Member Icon9/23/07 9:09 AM 
To: Coconut Queen (JEANNE2469) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (4 of 21) 
 2234.4 in reply to 2234.3 
yeppers you got it...of course that is my opinion and doesn't mean others should or do think the same...thanks for the sooo blue...very cool...peace D

From: ctj20109/23/07 12:44 PM 
To: All  (5 of 21) 
 2234.5 in reply to 2234.4 

Good morning,  posters...

But this is one of those times when I and Tim are going to have to agree to disagree...

Simply put?

There are the right and wrong means and ways to air one's disagreements with people like the obvious new ager:

And considering the wee bit of her reply I did read?

There's a Mexican indigenous acquaintance she might benefit from getting in touch with:

I also refer to him as Senor Shrink...


Y'see,   since the intent was to get her to not misuse indigenous means to advance her self serving ends,   one must first be quite sure as to who they're dealing with,  from the getgo,  Tim...


Another FYI...

Take care...




From: Coconut Queen (JEANNE2469) DelphiPlus Member Icon9/23/07 1:17 PM 
To: Madam D (MadamD) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (6 of 21) 
 2234.6 in reply to 2234.4 

The sky really looked like like that on the days I took those pictures - looks like that most every day, except when it's overcast and raining, of course.  Living here (in Honolulu) is like living in a post card!

I have been doing historical and genealogical research, and I really feel like the more I find out, the more I know that I don't know and the more there is to find out.  Some people are starting to view me as an "expert" in genealogy research and in Hawaii history.  But there is WAY more to find out and know before I'll ever be an expert.  I continually feel like an amateur.  My only advantages are an interest in these areas, persistance, and a knack for searching.  I seem to be able to find the most obscure things...but it's just because I'm persistent.



MiscHonolulu029.jpg Sun Behind The Palms picture by coconutqueen_hawaii

KamehamehaStatueandWaikiki024.jpg King Kamehameha Statue Downtown Honolulu picture by coconutqueen_hawaii



From: Madam D (MadamD) DelphiPlus Member Icon9/24/07 8:29 AM 
To: Coconut Queen (JEANNE2469) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (7 of 21) 
 2234.7 in reply to 2234.6 
persistence...has many might be slow in process...but the rewards are cool...knowledge is all we take when we move to the next dimension...peace D

From: Mike (stormstudio) DelphiPlus Member Icon9/24/07 12:03 PM 
To: Cherokee21 DelphiPlus Member Icon  (8 of 21) 
 2234.8 in reply to 2234.1 

Woh. All that diarreah of the keyboard for your one short call-out.

Seen this before - talked to some Indians, assumed some are 'friends' - BOOF! Instant 'legitimacy', let's make some dough off it.

Such pugnacious defense usually attempts to hide shame and wrong. A shame she knows but won't acknowledge. Charging thousands for something medicine folk give freely. If one is willing to make an actual effort to be with them. Not open their wallets for some mouthy blonde who fancies her ego-bound self a spiritual teacher.

Such privileged types are nauseatingly stupid, if they could only see that. She'll be the one getting a teaching by the Powers. More like a spanking, I imagine.


From: Coconut Queen (JEANNE2469) DelphiPlus Member Icon9/25/07 12:17 AM 
To: Madam D (MadamD) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (9 of 21) 
 2234.9 in reply to 2234.7 

You're so encouraging and appreciative of other people!  I appreciate your kind words.

I remind myself of the tortoise in "The Toroise and the Hare."  It's slow going, but I get results.  The best result I got was finding information on my friend's biological father.  She never knew who him; he was murdered when she was about 1 or 2 years old, she didn't know his name, and all she knew was a nickname, that he was a Chinese peddler and that he was killed "in the graveyard."  She didn't even know what year he was killed, but thought it might have been the sometime between 1950 and 1955.

That's not much to go on, but I found him.  I found a whole series of newspaper articles on him - with pictures.  It was the first time my friend had seen what her father looked like and the first time she knew his name.

I won't go further into it because I'm highjacking this thread - but that was a really neat experience.  The circumstances of the murder and the murderer and the confession are interesting enough to write about, too.

Okay, I'll stop highjacking this thread.

Experts and masters don't flaunt their expertise.  Often they're doing what they're doing because they have a passion for something and have acquired their knowledge as a consecquence of their interest in and passion for something.

I wouldn't call myself an expert in anything, not by a long shot, but I really love people and find all of us, our history and our experiences so very interesting.  I'm working on writing up some of what I've found out in my research in Hawaii history and may one day have enough to collect into a book.  Interesting people and how their lives weave into the history of Hawaii.

I'd better sign off - this could go on forever if I don't cut it off now.



MiscHonolulu029.jpg Sun Behind The Palms picture by coconutqueen_hawaii

KamehamehaStatueandWaikiki024.jpg King Kamehameha Statue Downtown Honolulu picture by coconutqueen_hawaii



From: Cherokee21 DelphiPlus Member Icon9/25/07 12:52 PM 
To: Madam D (MadamD) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (10 of 21) 
 2234.10 in reply to 2234.2 

I don;t think I'll be getting a Christmas card from the master this year, do you D?



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