Help & Questions -  Spirituality Questions... (40 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
I maintain that, if everyone knew what others said about him, there would not be four friends in the world.-Blaise Pascal
 
From: MitsukaiDreamhunter (Kitsuzo) DelphiPlus Member Icon4/29/01 10:50 PM 
To: All  (1 of 9) 
 928.1 

I thought I would start this as a separate thread so as not to drag the other one off topic. The following are the questions I had asked over in UFO-Talk Time forum.
:)

Ive some questions for you, and well for anyone actually. Should ANY kind of Spirituality be sold?

If not, how should it be made available to those seeking it?
Should someone not brought up in a spiritual environment NOT pursue any kind of Spirituality based on the fact that they were not privy to the information from birth or cultural experience?
I ask this for the many of us white Americans who lost the spiritual traditions of European ancestry when our ancestors came here.

What should one do, when they want to pursue that which calls them toward a spiritual path, when they have the bloodlines of one culture and the land and spirits of another?
I ask this one because it has come up amongst friends offline, who though descended from celtic origin, have noted that they do live in America and have been made aware of spirits native to here, not Europe. Do you honor those spirits, or do refuse to acknowledge them in favor of acknowledging foreign spirits?

If for say I wanted to learn something of American Indian Spirituality how would I do so in a respectful manner, or should I forget it, as there may not be any respectful manner in which to persue it?
<Strictly hypothetical, I actually have a bit of an aversion to American Indian Spirituality, at the same time an attraction to all traditions of Shamanism, which does cause a serious problem for me from time to time as there is not much written on shamanism that isnt from the American Indian point of view.>

Sorry to hit you with so many questions, but living where I live, I dont get to meet too many American Indians in circumstances conducive to asking them about this.
It just isnt something I would feel comfortable asking someone I dont know real well.
Thanks
:)





 
 Reply   Options 

 
From: JadeEyes5/1/01 1:21 PM 
To: MitsukaiDreamhunter (Kitsuzo) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (2 of 9) 
 928.2 in reply to 928.1 
Personally, I think of products being things that are sold. To me, Spirituality isn't a product. It's something you're born with and develop as you mature, hopefully. I can't see how anyone thinks they can sell an inborn gift........
 

 
From: giizhigokwe5/1/01 9:14 PM 
To: MitsukaiDreamhunter (Kitsuzo) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (3 of 9) 
 928.3 in reply to 928.1 
Hi Kit,
I just finished reading your posts in the other thread and now here to read your questions. It's good that you bring up your questions and things that you have heard or read. Asking is the only way to find the answers. While I cannot provide answers to your main questions at this time, I do want to address this one in particular:

"<Strictly hypothetical, I actually have a bit of an aversion to American Indian Spirituality, at the same time an attraction to all traditions of Shamanism, which does cause a serious problem for me from time to time as there is not much written on shamanism that isnt from the American Indian point of view.>"

I am aware that there are other countries where shamanism originates so I don't have an opinion to offer on those. I am also aware that there are many individuals who claim to be Native American Shamans and it is those who I am referring to. Until someone tells me that THEIR Nation has a shaman, I don't believe there is such a concept. I too have seen the stacks of books about "Native American Shamanism" and think it is a joke that so many are out there. There are Medicine Men and Medicine Women, there are healers and spiritual leaders, but no shamans (that I know of) in the North American tribes.

So my point is that if you have found books on shamanism from the American Indian point of view, then you have discovered lies and deception. This is one of the ways I have learned to tell if someone is a fake or not. Another is the way that some people self-proclaim they are a shaman (or other self-appointed titles) because the true spiritual people are recognized by their community and have no need to brag about it.

Hope that helps a bit :)

 

I maintain that, if everyone knew what others said about him, there would not be four friends in the world.-Blaise Pascal
 
From: MitsukaiDreamhunter (Kitsuzo) DelphiPlus Member Icon5/4/01 6:51 PM 
To: giizhigokwe  (4 of 9) 
 928.4 in reply to 928.3 

:)

Those books were what helped me figure out the attraction/aversion thing lol.

Id see one, Id be attracted for a brief flash, than.....aversion.
To date, I have one book that deals with totems, but it was a gift by someone who Im quite fond of. And Ive found it to more informative as a study of animal behavior.
BUT, because of that "vibe" Id get, I kept my eyes open on that subject.
Later I came across a book that dealt with the Celtic traditions of shamanism. THAT clicked.
As I understand it, most to all forms have common origins and similar practices, but the mythes and pantheons are very different as are the rituals.
I like to study the common ground areas only and leave the Deities alone altogether, working with my own bloodlines on that. I dont do much ritual work as I find it is better for me to work on an "as needed" basis for healings and I honor Deity by honoring the connections I have with people, places and creatures in my own life.

Basically, I see the prevalence of American Indian "shamanism" out there, I dont mess with it. What I cant find on my own cultural background, I make up based on what I know about pychology, sociology, history, and intuition.
And there is still plenty of stuff I wont mess with, because Im not qualified by either school or mentor to mess with.

Were I to make a claim, I claim to study Celtic Shamanism, but I dont claim to actually BE a shaman. I feel I still dont know enough yet to assume any such title. To be honest, I dont even know yet how much is left to learn.
Tis no matter though because life is ultimately an ongoing learning process.
:)





 

 
From: giizhigokwe5/5/01 11:15 AM 
To: MitsukaiDreamhunter (Kitsuzo) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (5 of 9) 
 928.5 in reply to 928.4 
It is interesting that you had an intuitive aversion to books written by fakes...that's a nice gift to have because it helps a person to not get sucked in by lies. KEWL!
 

 
From: Mike (stormstudio) DelphiPlus Member Icon5/6/01 1:23 AM 
To: MitsukaiDreamhunter (Kitsuzo) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (6 of 9) 
 928.6 in reply to 928.1 
Jade Eyes said it well, Kitsuzo... spirituality is not a "thing", something to sell. Of course.

People can influence others' spirits, however. Which is why a common indigenous tradition is that money is not directly involved if ceremony is guided by someone other than direct family. There is instead giveaway, a practice both practical and spiritual.

Among those traditional natives who do trade money for these things, they do so with each other, as they have the worldview to keep these things in perspective. Whatever is needed.

To those seeking - money isn't the "thing" to spend, to give... it's time. Presence. Intent. Support. So much cannot be known otherwise.

For American Indians, fullblood and mixed, presence is the factor many struggle with. Going back. Somewhat a major requirement for us. Demands of the modern clock, concern about rejection, conflict of values, these make it hard. Those seeking but raised away over a generation or more have missed so much - but it is possible, with patience...

For those not blood, but with right intent and approach... it's the same road. But naturally more complicated, to say the least. Only natural...

Another thing that's natural... I've heard it expressed by good people, in the best way... the wish that other cultures go back to their own core beliefs - so there would be some common ground. It does make good sense. It's the healing many anglo cultures will need to consider, for the sake of the earth.

But it's true and good to see that people acknowledge, sense the spirit the land holds here. There are some parallels to the spirits in others' homelands. There are also ways to understand more, without taking, without colonizing, or claiming. Many forget this but some do well also, because there is respect to what's available for them, acceptance for what is not.

Shamanism. I believe you can understand... much misperception has happened in the past, for fear and gain. So Indians are wary of labels like pagan, or shaman. The right and respect to define ourselves is a very high priority in these days, now that there is the opportunity.

Life ways that literists might insist on defining as shamanic, are far beyond that. The common ground is primal experience, within cultures, where words (or money) have no effect. Just as a Cherokee gourd dancer or Dine' roadman or Anishinaabe singer are not "shamans", still - there are common perceptions and experiences. Only different contexts, worldviews. But those can make a world of difference.

If the aversion you describe to American Indian 'shamanism' is for some spoken accounts, or published accounts on the bookshelves, good for you - your BS detector is right online. Many misrepresent, out of ego, or mere lack of understanding. You may also be picking up on the experiential aspect also - where words and money...

And if the aversion comes from deeper inside, from your own blood, I could respect that even more. Likely your own ancestors are calling.

Anyroad, my response to the fox with the lamp:|

Best,


Mike

All Natives Forum

NHIC Humor Forum

"Support Your Local Indigenous Inhabitant"

 

 
From: giizhigokwe5/6/01 5:12 PM 
To: Mike (stormstudio) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (7 of 9) 
 928.7 in reply to 928.6 
Your words have again said it all, simply, directly and to the point. Well said Mikester!
 

I maintain that, if everyone knew what others said about him, there would not be four friends in the world.-Blaise Pascal
 
From: MitsukaiDreamhunter (Kitsuzo) DelphiPlus Member Icon5/6/01 10:36 PM 
To: giizhigokwe  (8 of 9) 
 928.8 in reply to 928.5 

:)
Intuition is something Ive come to rely on heavily in my life.





 

I maintain that, if everyone knew what others said about him, there would not be four friends in the world.-Blaise Pascal
 
From: MitsukaiDreamhunter (Kitsuzo) DelphiPlus Member Icon5/6/01 11:22 PM 
To: Mike (stormstudio) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (9 of 9) 
 928.9 in reply to 928.6 
:)

>>>>Shamanism. I believe you can understand... much misperception has happened in the past, for fear and gain. So Indians are wary of labels like pagan, or shaman. The right and respect to define ourselves is a very high priority in these days, now that there is the opportunity.<<<<<

Understandable. Many individuals have this same problem with the terms Witch, Pagan etc. because Spirituality is so individualistic, its hard to put a label on it. But many also succumb to using a term somewhat familiar to all, as a starting reference point for education. I use Shamanism as a general term, closest to the kind of spirituality that suits me best.

>>>>Life ways that literists might insist on defining as shamanic, are far beyond that. The common ground is primal experience, within cultures, where words (or money) have no effect. Just as a Cherokee gourd dancer or Dine' roadman or Anishinaabe singer are not "shamans", still - there are common perceptions and experiences. Only different contexts, worldviews. But those can make a world of difference.<<<<<

Exactly true. I like that "Life Path" term, it seems more encompassing than just shamanism.
I also think that for me, the answers in terms of this kind of path does not lie strictly in the Past or in particular cultures, but also in this more modern era, and in terms of human existence with nature in the future. We need to be concerned with where we are, and where we are going, as well as know what foundation we are standing on.

>>>If the aversion you describe to American Indian 'shamanism' is for some spoken accounts, or published accounts on the bookshelves, good for you - your BS detector is right online. Many misrepresent, out of ego, or mere lack of understanding. You may also be picking up on the experiential aspect also - where words and money... <<<<

Never really met anyone who made the claim in person. If I did, Id likely be able to spot it fairly easily. Often what a person wears and how they carry themselves is a dead giveaway to intent. Books though, thats where I get the feeling something isnt right.

>>>And if the aversion comes from deeper inside, from your own blood, I could respect that even more. Likely your own ancestors are calling.<<<<

Dont really know where it comes from. It seems more an intuitional thing. Sometimes from that part of me I reference as "Spirit Guardian" but I also cant rule out the bloodline thing. Ever since becoming interested in Spirituality and especially "shamanic" spirituality, Ive feel bloodline was crucial. Maybe part of it has to do with genetic memory. And it could be my ancestors. Likely it would be both. :)






 

First Discussion>>

 
Adjust text size:
Using a mobile device? Switch to the Mobile Site.

Welcome, guest! Get more out of Delphi Forums by logging in.

New to Delphi Forums? You can log in with your Facebook, Twitter, or Google account or use the New Member Login option and log in with any email address.

Home | Help | Forums | Chat | Blogs | Advertising | Membership Plans
© Delphi Forums LLC All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Service.