PAULFROMNYS

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Hosted by PAULFROMNYS|Malachi 3:16-18/Bible talk

Based on Malachi 3:16-18 I believe the Lord will harken to us as we consider his word together.

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Adam   Bible discussions/all

Started Nov-30 by PAULFROMNYS; 2686 views.
Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Jan-1

JS5777 said:
Fred: Are there any scriptural references for this?
James: Simple, just follow the sequence of events.

Fred: But you did not cite any verses except 2 Corinthians 5:21 which has nothing to do with Adam.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

According to these verses, the woman was tempted and ate, then gave it to her husband who was with her and he also ate. Your sequence of events is difficult to find here.

Back to "sinless but incomplete." If I were to say that the bride of Christ is not yet complete, I do not mean to imply that there is something wrong with the finished work of Christ. Christ finished His work of redemption, said, "It is finished" and has now sat down at the right hand of God.

But the bride is not yet ready. This is related to our cooperation, not imperfection in the work of Christ. 

Genesis 2:1-2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

I assume when God said "very good" then rested from His work, that there is nothing wrong with His work. But in His sovereign design from the foundation of the world, He gave man a free will. Adam had a part to play in choosing what to receive into himself. When he chose knowledge over life, he fell. Thus, he did not cooperate with God and was incomplete. Instead of becoming a man of life, he became a man of knowledge. Many "Christians" fall into this category as well.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

Jan-1

   Agree except to say that Adam did not accept knowledge IMO, he went in because of his love for Eve, which I can understand having lost my beloved last year.  Eve was deceived by the presentation of the forbidden tree, Adam was not deceived.  Anything we take over the Word of GOD is death to us, and were it not for the blood we'd all be dead.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Jan-1

JS5777 said:

. Again, there is NO Biblical scripture that shows an incompleteness by God in His creating man in His own image and likeness, once again, by saying such, one would be attributing incompleteness to God, which is an error.

Ok. Let us reason together. When God created man, before He built the woman, was Adam complete? God Himself said "it is not good for a man to be alone."

I would say that baby Jesus in the manger was sinless, but not complete. Not complete in the sense that He needed to cooperate with the Father and grow for 33.5 years, be baptized, go to the cross, and be raised from the dead. I would also say that He is not yet complete in the sense that His Body is not matured, and His bride has not yet made herself ready. This is not to criticize God's completeness, the lack lies with man's free will.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

Jan-1

   Taking the eternal perspective, these things are all complete.  Yet here we are following scripture in working out our own salvation with fear and trembling.  To me one is us in incompleteness, the other is Christ our life in the eternal perspective.  So as we yield ourselves to the work of GOD to place us under His feet we are moving into the eternal perspective with the seal of the Word:  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Jan-1

PAULFROMNYS said:

   I believer there is a dual reality essential to GOD:  (((1)))  That man may be in His image for the eternal fellowship of His love as sons and daughters.  (((2))) That the realization of that is a RELATIONSHIP sealed by both parties.

Right. The relationship is, we are the container and God is the content. This is why the figure of eating is so prominent throughout the entire Bible. Christ is the fruit of the tree of life, He is the manna, He is the offerings (which were eaten), the produce of the good land, the Bread of life, the bread which came down out of heaven, etc. 

"In His image" means a vessel to receive and contain Him, like a glove is made in the image of a hand to receive and express the hand. God is the hand and we are the glove.

So I am having to explain what I mean by "not complete." God is complete, but there are two other parties in this story, Adam, with a free will, and Satan, who is our adversary. Adam chose Satan, the serpent, thus he never fulfilled God's intention for man.

Then Christ came. He was the glove, and the Father was the hand. He lived by eating every word which proceeds out through the mouth of God. He spoke the Father's word and did the Father's will. If you saw Him, you saw the the Father. Adam was not complete in this sense.

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

Jan-1

   Amen.   Adam is like Paul in the sense that he was EXTREMELY equipped in the things of GOD.  He will have the same testimony for transgression as Paul = I was forgiven because I was ignorant.  Great stature greatly magnifies good and/or evil through itself.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Jan-1

PAULFROMNYS said:

   Agree except to say that Adam did not accept knowledge IMO,

The verse says that "she gave it to her husband with her, and he did eat." (Genesis 3:6) Also Romans 5:14 says "Adams transgression" and 5:16 says "through the one who sinned" meaning Adam. 

I think by saying that the woman being deceived but the man was not deceived means that he sinned with his eyes wide open, as an act of his will. Romans 5 seems to support this.

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

Jan-1

   He did act with his eyes wide open, in that he was not deceived.  Therefore I think it right to say he was not motivated by the deception, by what then?  I can only see his love for Eve as the motive.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Jan-1

PAULFROMNYS said:

 Taking the eternal perspective, these things are all complete. 

Yes. That is why John saw the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. But on our end, it still has to be worked out in time. This is the very point I am trying to make by the word "incomplete." 

God is omnipotent, but when He made man with a free will, He limited Himself at that point. He will not go further than man's cooperation with Him. This is a difficult point for people. Also, when God said "it is not good for man to be alone", I think He meant it is not good for God (the man Christ Jesus) to be alone. He needs a bride. When I tell people God needs something, a bride, they always argue with me. "God is perfect and omnipotent, He doesn't need anything!!!!"

Both the extreme objectivism of Calvinism and the extreme subjectivism of Aminianism miss this point, and it is hard to find anyone who has not been influenced by one or the other these tow extremes.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Jan-1

PAULFROMNYS said:

   He did act with his eyes wide open, in that he was not deceived.  Therefore I think it right to say he was not motivated by the deception, by what then?  I can only see his love for Eve as the motive.

Well then his natural love for his wife exceeded his love for God which is a sin. 

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, and moreover, even his own soul-life, he cannot be My disciple.

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