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Based on Malachi 3:16-18 I believe the Lord will harken to us as we consider his word together.

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What Happens When...   General Discussion

Started Sep-9 by JS5777; 333 views.
JS5777

From: JS5777

Sep-9

Prov 29:18      Where there is no prophetic vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

The vision that is transmitted to the people through the Prophets speaking as God gives them utterance, has a purpose of preparing the people for things to come, so that those things will not find them unprepared, and they can be saved from the snares that the adversary (ha satan) tries to set for them to stumble into.

But what happens when the Prophets keep silent?

Isa 30:8           Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

Isa 30:9           That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:

Isa 30:10         Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

Isa 30:11         Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

Are the people that speak Isa 30:10 to the Prophets, in fact, asking for their own perdition?

 

Shalom,

JS5777

  • Edited September 9, 2022 11:50 pm  by  JS5777
In reply toRe: msg 1
Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Sep-10

JS5777 said:

Prov 29:18      Where there is no prophetic vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

1 Corinthians 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

This means that we all have the obligation to prophesy.

1 Corinthians 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

This means that we all have the capacity to prophecy.

God is a speaking God, and He made man with 2 particular organs, a spirit, and a tongue for speech. Man is created to speak. What should we speak? We should speak what God speaks. We should speak what God has spoken. We should not add things to what God has spoken, or take things away from what God has spoken.

Very little of what Old Testament prophets spoke was related to the future. Most of their speaking was to God's people revealing God's heart, God's will, and God's way for their present situation. 

Like the Old Testament saints, it is difficult for people to hear God's word today because they are full of other things. Their hearts are fat. I am speaking of Christians. The Christian religion is a mixture of superstition, myths, traditions, and the Bible. 

Here is another verse from Isaiah.

Isaiah 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Both Jesus and the apostle Paul quoted this verse. (Matthew 13:14-15; Acts 28:26-27)

In reply toRe: msg 1
Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Sep-10

JS5777 said:

Are the people that speak Isa 30:10 to the Prophets, in fact, asking for their own perdition?

As prophets who have some burden to be exercised to speak for the Lord, and speak forth the Lord, it is a serious mistake to misrepresent God's heart. What you say is probably true, yet God's heart is revealed in verse 18 of the same chapter.

Isaiah 30:18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

God is longsuffering, rich in mercy, full of grace and not willing that any should perish or go to perdition.

Moses made the very great mistake in Numbers 20:2-12 of misrepresenting God's heart. Moses got angry with God's people and called the "rebels" when God was not angry. Therefore God disciplined Moses, the prophet of God in a very serious manner. 

Numbers 20:11-12 And Moses lifted up -- his hand, and with his rod he smote -- the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
And the LORD spoke unto Moses and -- Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring -- this congregation into the land which I have given them.

We have the obligation to speak, because God has called us and put His words in our mouth, but we have no liberty to express the self. 

In reply toRe: msg 1
Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Sep-10

JS5777 said:

Prov 29:18      Where there is no prophetic vision

Interesting that you feel to add the word "prophetic" to this verse. 

Related to prophets, prophesying, and representing God's heart; in my Bible reading this morning I am in 1Samuel 19 which has the curious story of Saul prophesying while trying to kill David. This story also involves Samuel. Samuel knew the will of God and David was according to God's heart, but it seems Saul was neither. Yet he prophesied while naked.

While being fully exposed, naked, knowing neither God's will nor God's heart, he prophesied.

How do you understand this?

1 Samuel 19:22-24 Then went he (Saul) also to Ramah, and came to a great well that is in Sechu: and he asked and said, Where are Samuel and David? And one said, Behold, they be at Naioth in Ramah. And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. And he stripped off his clothes also, and -- prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

Sep-10

   WOW, love this Fred  :)   We looked at 1 Cor 14 last night.  The emphasis upon prophecy in gathering is stunning, yet we hear so very little of it.

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

Sep-10

   Fred said:  While being fully exposed, naked, knowing neither God's will nor God's heart, he prophesied. How do you understand this?

   Paul:  Thought that comes to mind = he was naked, exposed, thereby aware of his true circumstances with all self justification stripped away = he could see, and his place must have been frightening to him, yet he saw and thereby could prophecy.    

JS5777

From: JS5777

Sep-10

Fred said: “Interesting that you feel to add the word "prophetic" to this verse.

 

The Jubilee Bible, 1899 Douay-Rheims Bible, English Standard Version Bible, and the International Standard Version Bible among others ALL use the word “prophecy” in Prov 29:18.

 

Pro 29:18  Where there is no vision (H2377), the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

 

The Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance

Vision, H2377, ??????, cha^zo^n, khaw-zone', From H2372; a sight (mentally), that is, a dream, revelation, or oracle: - vision.

H2372, ?????, cha^za^h, khaw-zaw, A primitive root; to gaze at; mentally to perceive, contemplate (with pleasure); specifically to have a vision of: - behold, look, prophesy, provide, see.

 

The Nave’s Topical Bible Lists the following

Old Testament use of the word “vision”

Vision: A mode of revelation: Num 12:6; 1 Sam 3:1; 2 Chr 26:5; Psa 89:19; Pro 29:18; Jer 14:14; Jer 23:16; Dan 1:17; Hos 12:10; Joel 2:28; Oba 1:1; Hab 2:2; Of Abraham, concerning his descendants: Gen 15:1-17; Of Jacob: Of the ladder with ascending and descending angels: Gen 28:12; At Beersheba: Gen 46:2; Of Joshua, of the captain of the Lord's host: Jos 5:13-15; Of Moses: Of the burning bush: Exo 3:2; Of the glory of God: Exo 24:9-11; Exo 33:18-23; Of the Israelites, of the manifestation of the glory of God: Exo 24:10; Exo 24:17; Heb 12:18-21; Of Balaam, in a trance: See Balaam; Of Elisha, at the translation of Elijah: 2 Kin 2:11; Of Elisha's servant, of the chariots of the Lord: 2 Kin 6:17l; Of Micaiah, of the defeat of the Israelites; of the Lord on His throne; and of a lying spirit: 1 Kin 22:17-23; 2 Chr 18:16-22; Of David, of the angel of the Lord by the threshing floor of Ornan: 1 Chr 21:15-18; Of Job, of a spirit: Job 4:12-16; Of Isaiah: Of the Lord and His glory in the temple: Isa 6:1-13; Of the valley of vision: Isa 22; Of Jeremiah: Of an almond rod: Jer 1:11; Of the seething pot: Jer 1:13; Of Ezekiel: Of the glory of God: Eze 1:3; Eze 1:12-14; Eze 23; Of the roll: Eze 2:9; Of the man of fire: Eze 8-9; Of the coals of fire: Eze 10:1-7; Of the dry bones: Eze 37:1-14; Of the city and temple: Eze 40-48; Of the waters: Eze 47:1-12; Of Daniel: Of the four beasts: Dan 7; Of the Ancient of days: Dan 7:9-27; Of the ram and the he goat: Dan 8; Of the angel: Dan 10; Of Amos: Of grasshoppers: Amos 7:1-2; Of fire: Amos 7:4; Of a plumb line: Amos 7:7-8; Of summer fruit: Amos 8:1-2; Of the temple: Amos 9:1; Of Zechariah: Of horses: Zec 1:8-11; Of horns and carpenters: Zec 1:18-21; Of the high priest: Zec 3:1-5; Of the golden candlestick: Zec 4:1-14; Of the flying roll: Zec 5:1-4; Of the mountains and chariots: Zec 6:1-8

New Testament use of the word “vision”

Of Zacharias, in the temple: Luke 1:13-22; Of John the Baptist, at the baptism of Jesus: Mat 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32-34; Peter, James, and John, of the transfiguration of Jesus and the appearance of Moses and Elijah: Mat 17:1-9; Luke 9:28-36; Of the people, of the tongues of fire at Pentecost: Acts 2:2-3; Of Stephen, of Christ: Acts 7:55-56. Of Paul: Of Christ, on the way to Damascus: Acts 9:3-6; 1 Cor 9:1; Of Ananias: Acts 9:12; Of a man of Macedonia, saying, “Come over into Macedonia, and help us”: Acts 16:9; In Corinth: Acts 18:9-10; In a trance: Acts 22:17-21; Of paradise: 2 Cor 12:1-4; Of Ananias, of Christ: Acts 9:10-12; Of Cornelius, the centurion, of an angel: Acts 10:3; Of Peter, of the sheet let down from heaven: Acts 10:9-18; Of John on the Isle of Patmos: Of Christ and the golden candlesticks: Rev 1:10-20; The open door: Rev 4:1; A rainbow and throne: Rev 4:2-3; Twenty-four elders: Rev 4:4; Seven lamps: Rev 4:5; Sea of glass: Rev 4:6; Rev 15:2; Four living creatures: Rev 4:6-8; Book with seven seals: Rev 5:1-5; Golden vials: Rev 5:8; Of the six seals: Rev 6; Four horses: Rev 6:2-8; Earthquake and celestial phenomena: Rev 6:12-14; Four angels: Rev 7:1; Sealing of the one hundred and forty-four thousand: Rev 7:2-8; Of the seventh seal and seven angels: Rev 8-11; Of the censer: Rev 8:5; Hail and fire: Rev 8:7; Mountain cast into the sea: Rev 8:8-9; Falling star: Rev 8:10-11; Rev 9:1; The third part of sun and moon and stars darkened: Rev 8:12; Bottomless pit: Rev 9:2; Locusts: Rev 9:3-11; Four angels loosed from the Euphrates: Rev 9:14; Army of horsemen: Rev 9:16-19; Angel having a book: Rev 10:1-10; Seven thunders: Rev 10:3-4; Measurement of the temple: Rev 11:1-2; Two witnesses: Rev 11:3-12; Court of the Gentiles: Rev 11:2; Two olive trees and two candlesticks: Rev 11:4; The beast out of the bottomless pit: Rev 11:7; Fall of the city: Rev 11:13; Second and third woes: Rev 11:14; A woman clothed with the sun; birth of the man child: Rev 12; A red dragon: Rev 12:3-17; War in heaven: Rev 12:7-9; The beast rising out of the sea: Rev 13:1-10; The beast coming out of the earth:
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In reply toRe: msg 7
Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Sep-10

JS5777 said:

The Jubilee Bible, 1899 Douay-Rheims Bible, English Standard Version Bible, and the International Standard Version Bible among others ALL use the word “prophecy” in Prov 29:18.

Thanks brother. That is what I call a detailed response. I did find the English Standard Version on my iphone app, but I thought that you quoted solely from the KJV, as many do, but good response.

JS5777

From: JS5777

Sep-10

I do quote primarily from the KJV Bible, however, if you will note, I did not quote in a way that is contradictory, but it instead is complimentary to the KJV Bible.

Thank you for noticing the completeness of my application of the verse.

 

Shalom,

JS5777

  • Edited September 10, 2022 3:51 pm  by  JS5777
Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Sep-10

JS5777 said:

Please be careful to not try to “grasp at straws” in order to try to prove a nonexistent point. A true prophetic anointing CAN fall upon a vessel that has failures and the prophecy STILL be of God.

Of course even David and Samuel were failures in some respect. But is'nt there a difference between God's way in the Old Testament dispensation and in His New Testament economy? Hebrews 1:1 and 2 seem to indicate this.

As a former Pentecostal, I can testify that there is some confusion with them, confusing God's Old Testament way with His New Testament way. In the Old Testament, The Spirit could fall on a donkey, or a man intent on murder, but in these last days, God has spoken to us by His Son. Some of the examples you cited, (John the Baptist, Caiaphas)  although found in the New Testament, were still in the Old Testament dispensation because Jesus had not died and risen to become a life giving Spirit for us to receive.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Consider Jesus. Can you find a verse which says that "the Spirit fell upon Him and He prophesied"? He was a man in continual union with the Father, and whatever He spoke was a kind of prophesying. God was mingled with Him and with His speaking. That is God's New Testament way. That is the way of incarnation. As you say, the word is still being made flesh today. 

In addition, according to Ephesians 4:11, prophets are not there to stand in "the office of the prophet", but are given by the Lord to perfect the saints that all may prophesy (1 Corinthians 14). All are prophets. God is a speaking God, and we are a speaking people. This is the New Testament.

Ephesians 4:8-12 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

The way that Ephesians 4:8-12 is written indicates that some persons are taken captive by the Lord, He works on them for a good long while, then gives them to the church. It is not that He gives some persons gifts, it is that he gives His captive, His bond-slave as a gift. The person is the gift. The person is a gift who is practiced at prophesying according the New Testament principle, of being united, mingled and one with God and speaking forth God. Then he can perfect the saints to prophesy, thusly building up the Body of Christ.

I believe this is a valid point.

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