JS5777 said:

Therefore, Hanukkah DOES have some scriptural basis and is NOT "just only" an "extra-Biblical" Jewish Tradition, as you indicated by your following statement

Sorry for the long delay in responding, my wife was in the hospital for a time and then the church began a conference incidentally on the last of the history books: 1&2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah and Esther, with Haggai and Zechariah thrown in because they prophesied during the recovery of God's house and the city of Jreusalem.

Nehemiah 8:5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;) and when he opened it, all the people stood up:

Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Nehemiah 8:14 And they found written in the law which the LORD had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month:

Notice that the recovered people of God returned to the Word, and discovered the feast of tabernacles. This is God's way.

James: Therefore, Hanukkah DOES have some scriptural basis and is NOT "just only" an "extra-Biblical" Jewish Tradition, as you indicated by your following statement...

Fred: I know that the cleansing of the temple after it's defilement 160 or so years BC is a historical fact, but it is not recorded in the Bible, therefore is "extra-Biblical." The source  of Hanukkah, or the feast of dedication is not the Word of God, but the Talmud, a huge collection of myths, traditions, and "the teachings and opinions of thousands of Rabbis through the ages" according to Wikipedia. 

 I know the Jews had such a practice in John 10:22, but to say that Jesus was "respecting" their practice by being there is not right. While they were celebrating the rededication of their temple, the real temple was standing before them, and they tried to stone Him.

In His first trip to Jerusalem, He took a whip of cords and drove the Jews out of the temple because they had made the Father's house a house of merchandise. (John 2:15-16) 

At the end He told them that "their house" was left to them desolate.

Matthew 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

I believe that by saying "your house" He did not consider the temple to be God's house any longer, but the Jew's house. They were no longer contacting God and worshipping God according to the revelation of God, but had become a fallen and degraded religion.

A few decades later the whole thing was leveled to the ground.

JS5777 said:

Frankly, I find it somewhat disturbing the propensity that some people have, to minimize the miraculous works of God and to lightly attempt to discount the GREAT importance that those miracles can have in the lives of people that "dilligently seek Him".

It's ok if you say "Fred" instead of "some people." I will try to explain my burden.

I met with the Pentecostals for something like 19 years so I know how they think. They love miracles. They believe that if people could only see miracles, many would believe. This is not true. Faith does not come from seeing miracles. Faith comes from hearing the word of Christ. Unfortunately, while longing for miracles, they neglect the Word.

Ron Wyatt believes that if people could just see the Noah's ark, or the rock that Moses struck to bring forth water, that they would believe. I do not agree. True faith, faith that receives God as life comes through hearing the word of Christ. 

I also know how the Fundamentalists think. They do not believe in miracles at all. I disagree with them also. God is living and operating in people and in their environment to draw them to Himself.

But the fixation on miracles and supernatural, outward things has caused my dear Pentecostal friends to neglect their spirit, something thoroughly and exhaustively revealed in the Scriptures as the God ordained means to experience Christ. It also has caused them to be a bit superstitious and not thoroughly grounded in the Scriptures.

I am not the least offended if you do not agree, and thank you for all the information.

If your surmising were entirely true, then the Temple veil would not have torn from the top-down, because there would have been absolutely no connection between His body as Temple and the Temple of Jerusalem.

However, there was a time of transition from the symbolic of the Old Testament into the reality that He was/is, and therefore there was still a connection, and therefore, in order for scripture to be fulfilled, the Temple veil WAS torn when the Lord Jesus died upon the cross.

In the SAME way, when the Temple was re-dedicated, there WAS a miraculous event that occurred, and it DOES have significance for us today.

If you choose to ignore scriptural testimony by using your contrived surmisings, that is your problem, but John 10:2-23 DOES exist and it DOES speak about the SAME dedication that Hanukkah is based upon, AND upon the miraculous event that God did in relation to the re-dedication of the Temple.

If you choose to ignore the VERY valid fact that the temples for the habitation of the Holy Spirit that we are MUST be re-dedicated (many times) back to God (even daily, Luke 9:23), then there will be negative results.

But I choose to recognize the lessons of the Word of God and NOT ignore them, or discount them because of anti-Word surmising.

Shalom,

JS5777

By recognizing the miraculous works of God that He has done in the past.

Rom 15:4  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

And the meaning that those testimonies STILL have for us today, is NOT to deny ANY of the dealings the the Holy Spirit does in and through EVERY aspect of our being, and ALL of the multitude of interactions that THOSE works that He does, have  in our entire being (not just only our spirit).

To refuse to focus ALL of my attention upon ONLY ONE aspect of His working in us (our spirit), is NOT to deny THAT work, but rather it is to recognize ALL of the meaning that, THAT work has in and for us. It is to recognize the FULL scale and impact that it has within and on us.

Just as the items that were placed inside of the Ark of the Covenant/Testimony, were placed there for a reason and purpose, SO ALSO, every one of the Biblical testimonies that have been given, have been given for us to learn from and NOT ignore, because they were given for a reason and a purpose, which is VERY important for us today, because EVERY detail has been given because they contain some instruction that is of vital importance for some member of the Body of Christ to come to maturity in Him.

ALL of the Word of God is a written Testament and Covenant with us.

ALL of my Ishi is important and NOT ONE jot or tittle (of Him) is to be left out.

Because, just as He is ALL of the Word of God that has been made manifest in flesh, SO ALSO through the wedding vows, the Wife of the Lamb is ALSO (in Him) is becoming ALL of the Word of God made-flesh.

I will not commit spiritual fornication with ANY reasoning that attempts to discount ANY jot or tittle of HIM, because to do so is to also deny who He is making me to be in Him.

There IS a great miracle (the meaning of the word Hanukkah) that even now is happening, He is bringing forth Life from death and John 1:4 Light from darkness.

Shalom,

JS5777

JS5777 said:

To refuse to focus ALL of my attention upon ONLY ONE aspect of His working in us (our spirit), is NOT to deny THAT work, but rather it is to recognize ALL of the meaning that, THAT work has in and for us. It is to recognize the FULL scale and impact that it has within and on us.

It is really a blessing to study the recovery of God's people at the end of the Old Testament history books. What God did to initiate this recovery, restoration, and revival was not work a miracle, but stir up the spirits of His people. 

Ezra 1:1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

Ezra 1:5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them -- whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build -- the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.

Haggai 1:14 And the LORD stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and -- the spirit of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, and -- the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and did work in the house of the LORD of hosts, their God,

This thread is supposed to be on Revelation 1. John saw the revelation of Jesus Christ when he was in spirit (the King James translators were not sure weather to capitalize spirit or not. (1:9 is capital, 4:2, 17:3, and 21:10 are lower case indicating the human spirit which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit).

I have no faith in miracles. Pharaoh's magicians worked miracles. Jesus did not intrust Himself to those who followed him because they saw miracles.

John 2:23-24 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

JS5777 said:

To refuse to focus ALL of my attention upon ONLY ONE aspect of His working in us (our spirit), is NOT to deny THAT work, but rather it is to recognize ALL of the meaning that,

The truth that God made man with a spirit with which to contact God, who is Spirit, worship God (John 4:24), receive God, and know the living God, has been overlooked, missed, and dismissed, and opposed in most of Christendom.

There are two grave errors.

1. To add to the word of God thusly leavening the pure loaf. God's word is holy. We must be careful to not go beyond what is written.

1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brothers, I have transferred in figure to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us the matter of not going beyond what has been written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one, against the other.

2. Putting all things in their proper order. This is to "rightly divide the word."

1 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman, cutting straight the word of the truth.

The Spirit with our spirit is the base of all of God's further work in us. The Spirit is life in our spirit (Romans 8:2). The mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Romans 8:6) If we walk by the spirit, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to our mortal body. (Romans 8:11) Thus the three parts of man come into life, the divine life, the life of God.

When our regenerated spirit spreads to our mind, it becomes "the spirit of our mind." When the work of the Spirit in our spirit spreads from our spirit to our soul. This is the salvation of our soul.

Ephesians 4:23 And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind

1Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Miracles have mainly to do with the flesh. Lazarus was not resurrected in the sense that Christ was and entered into His glory. His (Jesus) spirit, soul, and body were in the divine life and full of the divine life in resurrection. Lazarus was merely resuscitated. He would have to receive the Spirit after Jesus' resurrection to be saved like everyone else, then exercise his human spirit to be filled with the Spirit and grow in life to be saved in his soul like the rest of us. The miracle of being resuscitated added nothing of God to him. Neither miracles nor artifacts (the ark, the shroud of Turin, etc.) can bring God into man, only receiving the Spirit through faith will accomplish God's will and fulfill His desire; the union, the mingling, and the incorporation of man and God, a marriage, in eternity. 

To first say to stay within the Word, and then to mention the shroud of Turin as a support for your perspective, is a VERY obvious contradiction.

Whereas, my mention about the feast of the dedication and that the Lord Jesus WAS present for THAT feast IS in the scriptures, specifically John 10:22-23.

I will not cast off John 10:22-23 and discount other scriptural locations where the Word of God mentions miracles, just because some man (you) says so.

The scripture DOES say that ALL of it was written for our learning.

Rom 15:4  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Be careful that in your zeal to focus all of your attention ONLY upon the "spirit" that you do not ignore the great and obvious parallels that, while many of God's miracles DID happen in ways that related to the flesh or material things, in ALL of them there ARE lessons to be learned that DO relate to spiritual things today, and to ignore THOSE lessons IS to diminish the work of the Spirit with our spirit that God is working right now.

Even when "God stirrs up the spirit" of some man, because of man being in a fallen and extranged condition from God, THAT stirring up IS a miracle that happens in our spirit, and to not consider it to be a miracle is to diminish the importance of the workings of the Spirit of God in our spirit, just because it may not have an obvious or immediate expression in physical things.

Or do you forget that one of the greatest purposes for God to deal with us in the multitude of ways that He does, is to eventually bring about the change in our mortal bodies so that we can go up to meet Him in the air, which is a physical thing that is the result of spiritual things.
Both the physical AND the spiritual ALL work together to bring about the eventual restoration of the image and likeness of God, just as it was in the beginning, NOT just only spiritual and NOT just only physical, but ALL of it together.

Just as it was in the beginning, when the Spirit of God moved upon the waters.

When He spoke, it WAS spiritual, BUT it DID NOT remain just ONLY spiritual.

That which was spoken in the spirit became manifest in the physical.

After all, THAT VERY DETAIL is a HUGE portion that identifies Him as being God.

From the very beginning, BOTH the Spiritual AND the natural/physical come together to identify Him as being God.

I have more than 30 years in dealing with people that attempt to make an artificial separation between the spiritual and the natural, and it DOES NOT work, and NEITHER is THAT artificial separation scripturally/Biblically defensible.

You are a little too late for me to be carried away with such vain reasonings of man that try to discount portions of the Word of God in order to make a vain attempt to support their, scripture contradicting, perspective.

I have long since identified the origin of such contradiction as being part of the contamination of Greek existential philosophy that came to affect Jewish thought through the contamination of Hellenistic influences, and that, THAT contamination came across into supposedly "christian" thought, primarily beginning in Alexandria.

But I utterly reject ALL such contamination.

Shalom,

JS5777

JS5777 said:

If your surmising were entirely true

According to the dictionary, to surmise means to imagine, to form a notion from scanty evidence, 

Here is the evidence, weather is scanty or not i guess is debatable.

Due to their unfaithfulness, God's people were in captivity in Babylon for 70 years. At the end of the 70 years, Jehovah stirred up the spirits of a few of His people to go back to Jerusalem and rebuild God's house, the temple, which had been destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. This initiated a 50 year period in which Ezra, Nehemiah, and others rebuilt the temple, the city of Jerusalem, and the wall.

Between the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the coming of Christ is a period of 400 years in which God is silent. There are no prophets until  John the Baptist. The recovery of God's people in the Old Testament makes possible the coming of Christ in the New Testament as the real temple of God.

John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
But he spake of the temple of his body.

What I see in John 10 is the coming of Christ as the good Shepherd to lay down His life for the sheep that they may receive the divine eternal life. In other words, to make us the temple, so that where He is, we may be also.

John 10:10-11 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life (zoe, the divine life), and that they might have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life (psuche, soul) for the sheep.

He came to give us life, the Father's life, to make us children of God.

John 10:28-30 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
I and my Father are one.

He is the real temple, He is the Father's house because the Father dwells in Him. He and the Father are one. 

While the Jews are celebrating the dedication of their temple based on something which happened during the silent years, Jesus, the real temple appeared and they questioned Him. Because of His answers, they tried to stone Him. 

Jesus was not there to celebrate Hanukkah. He was there to shepherd these Jews out of their Jewish religion and their meaningless rituals (the sheep fold) into the green pastures, to make them the temple of the living God, which has always been His desire.

Isaiah 66:1-2 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Notice man's spirit, and trembling at His word. God has always intended that man would be His tabernacle and that God would be our temple. God's heart is for man.

JS5777 said:

By recognizing the miraculous works of God that He has done in the past.

Hebrews 3:9-10 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

God indeed does miraculous works, but that is not His way to build up His house.

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

OK, as per my posting #92 above.

Just try to deny the physical/material aspects of "and it WAS" in the first chapter of Genesis, and see how much of your universe remains.

When anyone attempts to make a separation between the spiritual and the physical, it all falls apart and you are left with nothing more than vapor and philosophy.

Whatsoever God speaks in the Spirit, subsequently happens in the natural, THAT is a HUGE part of what identifies Him as being God.

Shalom,

JS5777