The ONLY way that the "natural man" can have even the slightest hope of understanding "spiritual" things is if the God of the supernatural does something miraculous. Otherwise the "natural man" is stuck with only a very small percentage of what he can see with his eyes and understand with a mind that is bound in darkness but the fallen cherub.

Isa 25:7  And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

Eze 28:14  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

THAT vail of covering which was over all nations has been destroyed by a different veil.

Heb 10:19  Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20  By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21  And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The time is coming when;

Isa 45:23  I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

There the vail of covering that keeps the nations in darkness will be completely removed, and every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

But even in the "natural man" there is a spiritual aspect that is related, spiritual darkness.

Shalom,

JS5777

JS5777 said:

The ONLY way that the "natural man" can have even the slightest hope of understanding "spiritual" things is if the God of the supernatural does something miraculous.

Thank you for responding brother James. I was profoundly sad when I thought that you were going to stop talking to me.

I would like to keep this discussion in focus.

As believers who love the Lord and therefore love and respect the Word, we certainly do not want to add things to "what is written," nor take anything away from the Word. In addition, we want to rightly divide the Word, that is, keep things in the proper perspective as revealed in the written Word. The point in this discussion, at least for me, is elevating things beyond their place in the Scriptures, and ignoring, or not seeing other things which the Scripture determines are important.

I don't know how you could read 1 Corinthians chapter 2 and not conclude that spiritual things relate to man's spirit, and natural things relate to man's soul. The Greek word translated natural in 1Corinthians 2:14 is psuchikos, from psuche meaning soul. Literally the word is "soulish."

The "spiritual man" in these verses is contrasted with the "soulish man". 

A soulish man is a natural man, one who allows his soul, (including the mind, the emotion, and the will) to dominate his entire being and who lives by his soul, ignoring his spirit, not using his spirit. Such a man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, and he is not able to know them. Rather, he rejects them. The religious Jews who sought signs and the philosophical Greeks, who sought wisdom were such men, to whom the things of the Spirit of God were foolishness.

1 Corinthians 1:22  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

A man who is ruled and controlled by his spirit is a spiritual man. Since God is Spirit, all the things of the Spirit of God are spiritual. A spiritual man is one who denies his soul and does not live by his soul but allows his spirit, that is, his regenerated spirit, which is occupied and energized by the Spirit of God, to dominate his entire being. Furthermore, he lives by such a spirit, moving and acting according to it. (Romans 8:4)

My complaint with the Pentecostals is that they talked incessantly about miracles and outward "manifestations of the Spirit" while completely and utterly ignoring the fact that God formed a spirit in man. (Zechariah 12:1)

We are saved by grace. Where can I find grace? Grace is with our spirit.

Galatians 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

Where is the Lord Jesus Christ? He is with our spirit.

2 Timothy 4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.

We are begotten of God in our spirit (John 3:6), worship God with our spirit (John 4:24) and serve God with our spirit.

Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

I never heard any of this wonderful good news when I was with the Pentecostals for 19 years. While elevating miracles and signs and gifts to the heavens, they never once mentioned man's spirit as the place from which God does His salvation work and the means by which we substantiate God. I believe this is a grave error.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

You may have noticed that at no time in ANY of my responses have I responded in a way that ignores the inner working of the Spirit of God with and in our spirit.

Just the opposite, SUCH working is a necessary and integral part of God dealing with the fallen condition of man.

In addition, I do not ignore the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Many theologians equate the use of the word "soul" with the mind, will and emotions or with the body that was formed from the dust of the earth in Gen 2:7.

However, in Mat 10:28 the Lord Jesus Christ makes a different distinction which denotes a less-material (spiritual) significance to the word "soul".

Even though I have related to you in previous postings, my use of the term "supernatural" is with a significance of it being something above or beyond "super" or superior to the "natural".

In a similar manner, when I have mentioned the word "miracle" or "miraculous", it is in reference to things that ONLY God can do by supernaturally interceding in the affairs of man, in ways that without such intervention would not happen.

As such the following verse applies.

Sal 103:2  Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:

Simply by mentioning the miraculous works of God, I am NOT unduly elevating them, but neither am I discounting them.

Please do not fall into the trap of attributing to me the extremes that you have noticed in others.

I am an entirely different person and I DO utilize the scriptures in a balanced way, that does not overly elevate and neither does it discount the works of God, in either spiritual or physical things.

Shalom,

JS5777

JS5777 said:

Many theologians equate the use of the word "soul" with the mind, will and emotions or with the body that was formed from the dust of the earth in Gen 2:7.

Many theologians? All believers should be schooled in the Word of God. What does the Bible say? Since God made man in His image and according to His likeness, and since the fall of man involved his entire being, and since salvation involves the recovery of a persons entire being, I think it is fairly important to get this right. Faith comes through hearing the Word of Christ.

If all we had was Hebrews 4:12, it would be enough to see that the spirit and soul should be divided. There are to many verses that make absolutely clear that man is a living soul, man has a spirit, and man lives in a body, all of which are the target of God's full salvation. I have posted the verses in various places. 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 makes clear that we are a tripartite being.

As for the soul being of three parts, mind will and emotion.

Mind. Proverbs 2:10 suggests that the soul needs knowledge (also Proverbs 24:14; 19:2) Since knowledge is a function of the mind, this proves that the mind is a part of the soul. Psalm 139:14 says that the soul knows. To know is something of the mind, which again proves the mind is part of the soul. Psalm 13:2 says that the soul considers, or takes counsel, which refers to the mind. Lamentations 3:20 indicates that remembrance is of the soul, that is, the soul can remember things. 

Will. Job 7:15 says that the soul chooses. To choose something is a decision made by the act of the will. This proves that the will must be a part of the soul. Job 6:7 says that the soul refuses. To choose and refuse are both functions of the will. 1 Chronicles 22:19 says "set your...soul to seek." Just as we set our minds to think, we set our souls to seek. This is of course, the soul making a decision, which proves that the will must be a part of the soul. Then in Numbers 30 binding one's soul is mentioned ten times. When we read this chapter, we understand that to bind the soul is to make a decision. I deals with a vow made with the Lord. To make a decision to bind the soul is to make a vow to the Lord. Thus it is proven that the will is a part of the soul. Psalm 27:12; 41:2; and Ezekiel 16:27 translate the Hebrew word soul as "will." 

Emotion. With the emotion there are many aspects, for example, love, hatred, joy, grief, etc. All of these are expressions of the emotion. References to love are found in 1 Samuel 18:1, Song of Songs 1:7, and Psalm 42:1. These verses show that love is something of the soul, proving, therefore, that within the soul there is such an organ, or function, as the emotion. Concerning hatred, note 2 Samuel 5:8, Psalm 107:18, and Ezekiel 36:5. Since hatred is an expression of the emotion, these verses also prove that the emotion must be a part of the soul. Ezekiel 36:5 translates with despiteful minds translating nepes as mind where elsewhere it is translated soul. It would be better translate despising in their soul. Joy, and element of the emotion, is also part of the soul, as seen in Isaiah 61:10 and Psalms 86:4, again proving that emotion is a part of the soul. Another aspect is desire: 1 Samuel 20:4, Deuteronomy 14:26, Ezekiel 24:25, and Jeremiah 44:14, the right meaning is reached when the American Standard Version is checked with the Young's or Strongs Concordance. Desire, and element of the emotion, is shown by these verses to be in the realm of the soul.

These verses establish the ground to verify the three parts in the soul: the mind, the will, and emotion. In the Scriptures it is difficult to find any additional parts of the soul, for these three parts cover all the functions of the soul. The mind is the leading part, followed by the will and emotion.

JS5777 said:

Simply by mentioning the miraculous works of God, I am NOT unduly elevating them, but neither am I discounting them. Please do not fall into the trap of attributing to me the extremes that you have noticed in others.

Yes, I am addressing what I feel are imbalances in the understanding of the Pentecostal/Charismatic believers whom I spent quite a bit of time with. You just happen to be here talking to me and present an opportunity for me to speak something, for which I am grateful. I believe this is what forums are for.

Here is an example of what I mean. One favorite topic among the dear believers of whom I speak is "the gifts" and a favorite passage of Scripture is 1 Corinthians 12:7-11. 

Because these gifts are outwardly visible and easily understandable by the natural man, it is focuses on add infinitum. There are 5 verses on the gifts.

But immediately following the gifts, there are 16 verses on the Body. The Body is mysterious and spiritual. In one Spirit we are all baptized into one Body...and are given to drink one Spirit. I do not remember hearing one sermon on the Body but many, many sermons on the gifts. This I believe is an example of wrongly emphasizing above what the Scriptures do.

JS5777 said:

with the body that was formed from the dust of the earth in Gen 2:7.

Obviously God formed mans body from the dust, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. So from this it is crystal clear, man has a body, and man is a soul. It is not so clear where man's spirit fits in here.

For that we need Proverbs 20:27 and Zechariah 12:1 (and Job 32:8)

Proverbs says that the spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah. The Hebrew word neshamah (spirit); is translated breath in Genesis 2:7 and in Job 32:8. Zechariah says that Jehovah formed the spirit in man. So we see that when Jehovah breathed into man the breath of life, man's spirit was formed within him. Man's spirit is not God, but it is close to and compatible with God. Our soul is fallen and our body became the flesh, but our spirit is formed in us to receive Him. Our spirit became dead, as in non-functional, at the fall, but is enlivened, quickened, made alive when the Spirit of our God enters our spirit. From there, He becomes a fountain of water springing up from our spirit and commences the salvation of our soul.

John 4:14  But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

To drink the living water is to worship Him!

If the Hebrew language, or something very similar, can be thought of as the building blocks or DNA of creation, the Word, perhaps we can get some clues about the functions of Holy Forms and Forces.

The first or premier letter of the sequence is the Aleph, unstated and yet present before the Beginning.

The second letter is Bet, the shelter of Creation began as a point as the first letter of the Bible, and the beginning of a progression of a Holy Timeline that history proceeds from.

The Aleph,  which is one of two letters that signify the Holy One, is composed of three letters within the one, a concept that directly applies.

The first,  the Yod at the top right which begins the sequence is the Yod,  the second letter that stands for the Holy One, high up in Heaven.

The middle letter is the Vav,  the connection between Heaven and earth, the hand of power reaching down.

Perhaps it can be said the Spirit that is brooding over the earth and delivering the creative light that turns darkness into a place of light and growth?

The third piece of the letter moving forward in time is another Yod, the Hand of the Holy One on earth, His physical presence.

Not a creation but a part of what was, is and is to be.

A pattern of revealing, a Temple,  from the beginning and carried through to an end transforming into a new beginning, the cycle of life moving into eternity.

The Spirit, along with the other forces in forms that add up to the concept of the Holy One might also be seen in the Holy Name.

The Y at the beginning of the Holy four letters might be the initiation of Elohim in the Highest Heaven, breathing His Word,  the Spirit Breath, H, directed to earth through the connection V and creating life through His breath on earth H.

The sum of the Four Letters might be said to be the evidence of His Presence that we can see and hear represented in physical Form.

In Exodus 6, the Almighty speaks to Moses and tells him that He revealed Himself to Moses fathers as Lord Almighty (NASB) but hadnt revealed to them the Name He told Moses in Exodus 3 on the mountain.

There are many opinions as to the pronunciation of This Name and some even say it is prohibited, which I dont agree with if spoken in the fear (respect), because it is my opinion that it sounds like the sound of the Spirit given Breath of Life that filled our lungs and that as belivers He is as close to us as breath.

Breathe in His Spirit and breathe out praises to The Holy One.

Earnest777 said:

because it is my opinion that it sounds like the sound of the Spirit given Breath of Life that filled our lungs and that as belivers He is as close to us as breath.

This is also my opinion. It sounds something like, "Yah-hoo-wah". Like a breathing out. In fact I have had the though that the changing of Abram's name to Abra-ham may indicate the adding of the breath of God to Him. Jehovah appeared to him again and again until he believed, and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

I also agree that the removal of Jehovah's name from the Scriptures and replace it with four unpronounceable consonants was a grave error by the Hebrews. The recovery of the Name is an interesting thing to study and there is lots of material on the internet. The Bible I use, the Recovery Version, has the name restored in the Old Testament.

However people get hung up on how it should be pronounced and so forth, but I do not think God is that petty.

Exodus 3:15 And God also said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial from generation to generation.