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The KJV's Capitalization of Spirits   Bible discussions/all

Started Jan-31 by Christ4Us; 419 views.
Christ4Us

From: Christ4Us

Jan-31

Revelation 1:John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;  KJV

The authorized KJV has this as well, but.. when we go to the 1611 Edition of the KJV, it is not capitalized.  https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_Revelation-Chapter-1/

Viewing the original 1611 KJV with archaic English spelling.
Click to switch to the Standard KJV.


 

1The Reuelation of Iesus Christ, which God gaue vnto him, to shewe vnto his seruants things which must shortly come to passe; and he sent and signified it by his Angel vnto his seruant Iohn,

2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimonie of Iesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3Blessed is hee that readeth, and they that heare the words of this prophesie, and keepe those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4Iohn to the seuen Churches in Asia, Grace be vnto you, & peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come, and from the seuen spirits which are before his throne:

~~~~`End of quote.

Now some may contest that it should be capitalized and that angels were never spirits in the scripture.

Psalm 104:4Who maketh his angel
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Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Jan-31

A few things come to mind without thinking too much about it.

1. The seven s/Spirits are listed with Him who was, who is, and is coming, the Almighty, and Jesus Christ the faithful witness. Angels do not have a place there.

2. When John talks about angels, he uses a different word, aggelos.

3. In what sense are angels the "eyes of the Lamb" as in Revelation 5:6? The Lamb has seven horns and seven eyes and the seven eyes are the seven s/Spirits of God.

4. Angels may be spirits, but are never called the "spirits of God" (as for as I know) the Spirit of God is God.

Christ4Us

From: Christ4Us

Jan-31

Fred (fnorthrup) said:

4. Angels may be spirits, but are never called the "spirits of God" (as for as I know) the Spirit of God is God.

There is only One Spirit of God for why you should reconsider when it is written as sevens Spirits of God in Revelation 3:1.

Revelation 3:1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

I point out the seven stars in what they represent are the angels.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

There is such a thing as the angel of the Lord.  

Genesis 16:11And the angel of the Lord
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Christ4Us

From: Christ4Us

Jan-31

Fred (fnorthrup) said:

1. The seven s/Spirits are listed with Him who was, who is, and is coming, the Almighty, and Jesus Christ the faithful witness. Angels do not have a place there.

Angels are always before His throne.  Does not God have angels?  When did they come into existence?  So it is possible that these angels were always with Him just as with the Father.

Matthew 18:10Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

I think you are confusing those seven Spirit as being a part of His identity when obviously, the seven stars are in charge of the seven churches ( the seven candlesticks ) were not active in His hand until Pentecost when the church was born.  Course, one could contend that they were always in His hands before the church was born since everything was preordained or foreseen to occur, but that is going deep when we are addressing what the Book of Revelation was written for and that was in warning the seven churches in these latter days before He comes as the Bridegroom.

Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength....20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Fred (fnorthrup) said:

2. When John talks about angels, he uses a different word, aggelos.

Not always.  Scripture refers to angels as spirits and John written what the Lord said about the seven stars as angels and so the seven spirits of God can very well be the same reference.

Christ4Us

From: Christ4Us

Jan-31

Fred (fnorthrup) said:

3. In what sense are angels the "eyes of the Lamb" as in Revelation 5:6? The Lamb has seven horns and seven eyes and the seven eyes are the seven s/Spirits of God.

Matthew 18:10Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Do these angels serves as the eyes of the Father?

Revelation 3:1And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

These seven spirits of God can be seven angels sent forth into all the earth.  Since there is only One Spirit of God, and any spirit outside of us is the spirit of the antichrist, then what is being sent forth through all the earth are the seven angels since the only time the Spirit of Christ will be sent is when a sinner believes the calling of the gospel.  Therefore the Book of Revelation is about warning the churches of what is coming to get ready or else as the angel of each church has been notified as those seven stars are in His hands to serve Him.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Feb-1

Christ4Us said:

There is only One Spirit of God for why you should reconsider when it is written as sevens Spirits of God in Revelation 3:1.

I'm slightly confused as you keep promoting the KJV as a kind of final authority on such questions, and the KJV has seven Spirits in capitals.

My personal faith is that there are not seven different Spirits, because Ephesians 4:4 says there is one Spirit. I believe, based partly on Zechariah 4, that the seven Spirits means that the Spirit has been intensified seven times, seven being a figurative number meaning completion, and is signified by the lampstand with seven lamps.

The things of God are mysterious and difficult for us to understand, so  God uses signs. A lamp gives light. if there are seven lamps, the light is seven times brighter like the sun during the millennium. The lampstand is one, but its function has been intensified.

Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

Zechariah 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a lampstand all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Because the churches had become degraded, especially because they had left Paul's betrothing ministry about 26 years earlier, God came in as the seven Spirits to call out the overcomers at the end of each of the seven epistles, to build up the Body of Christ, to prepare the Bride, and bring in the Kingdom.

2 Timothy 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

The first problem mentioned to these seven churches was that Ephesus had left their first love. When they left Paul's betrothing ministry, they left their first love.

The KJV translation of the word menorah as candlestick is the product of religious tradition. There were no candles in either the tabernacle or the temple. There was a lampstand, with lamps, which used olive oil as fuel. The Anglicans (King James) and Catholics both burn candles as a religious ritual, hence the translation. I fixed Zechariah 4:2 which in KJV says "a candlestick all of gold... with its seven lamps."

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Feb-1

Christ4Us said:

Not always.  Scripture refers to angels as spirits and John written what the Lord said about the seven stars as angels and so the seven spirits of God can very well be the same reference

The Greek word aggelos (angel) is also translated messenger as in Mark 1:2. The word literally means messenger. The translation I use translates aggelos as messenger, the seven stars are seven messengers. Since John is told to write seven letters and send them to the seven messengers, it makes sense to me that they would be human messengers, like John the Baptist in Mark 1:2.

Christ4Us

From: Christ4Us

Feb-1

Fred (fnorthrup) said:

I'm slightly confused as you keep promoting the KJV as a kind of final authority on such questions, and the KJV has seven Spirits in capitals.

The original 1611 KJV did not have any spirit capitalized in His words  FYI.  It is unfortunate that the updated KJV has capitalized the seven spirits when it should not have been.

Fred (fnorthrup) said:

My personal faith is that there are not seven different Spirits, because Ephesians 4:4 says there is one Spirit.

I believe that as well.

Fred (fnorthrup) said:

I believe, based partly on Zechariah 4, that the seven Spirits means that the Spirit has been intensified seven times, seven being a figurative number meaning completion, and is signified by the lampstand with seven lamps.

I am not seeing that in Zechariah 4th chapter.  I see this;

Zechariah 4:Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

But that is not the same as the seven whose eyes go forth for the Lord thru out the earth which I see as angels.

Zechariah 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

Fred (fnorthrup) said:

The things of God are mysterious and difficult for us to understand, so  God uses signs. A lamp gives light. if there are seven lamps, the light is seven times brighter like the sun during the millennium. The lampstand is one, but its function has been intensified.

Going outside of Zechariah to another reference can be of a stretch for why I disagree with that application as it cannot align.

Fred (fnorthrup) said:

Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

I could take that verse to apply towards this reference to below rather than about the Spirit being magnified seven fold.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Revelation 22:And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Fred (fnorthrup) said:

Because the churches had become degraded, especially because they had left Paul's betrothing ministry about 26 years earlier, God came i
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Christ4Us

From: Christ4Us

Feb-1

Fred (fnorthrup) said:

The Greek word aggelos (angel) is also translated messenger as in Mark 1:2. The word literally means messenger. The translation I use translates aggelos as messenger, the seven stars are seven messengers. Since John is told to write seven letters and send them to the seven messengers, it makes sense to me that they would be human messengers, like John the Baptist in Mark 1:2.

I disagree.  Look at each address to the seven churches in Revelation 2nd and 3rd chapters as they each address the angel of that church.  citing one example below.

Revelation 2:1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

John was to write the Book of Revelations and seal not the sayings of the Book for the time is at hand; not seven letters to send out by human messengers in his time.

Revelation 22:Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

Feb-2

Christ4Us said:

The original 1611 KJV did not have any spirit capitalized in His words  FYI.  It is unfortunate that the updated KJV has capitalized the seven spirits when it should not have been.

I'm curious what the basis is to believe that the 1611 version of the KJV is more accurate than the revisions? 

The pilgrims did not use the KJV at all since it was King James I who persecuted them and drove them out of England for not conforming to the Anglican Church, which was highly politicized. They used the Geneva Bible. 

When James became King of England, he also became head of the Anglican Church, in the same way the Pope is head of the Catholic Church. James was both political head and religious head, the very definition of mixture. If I were there at the time, I would also be a Puritan.

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