PAULFROMNYS

Bible talk

Hosted by PAULFROMNYS|Malachi 3:16-18/Bible talk

Based on Malachi 3:16-18 I believe the Lord will harken to us as we consider his word together.

  • 1711
    MEMBERS
  • 52008
    MESSAGES
  • 0
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

TLR Pioneer school #1   Topics/all

Started 11/11/21 by PAULFROMNYS; 132 views.
PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

11/11/21

   (1) Lesson 1 - Come out of the box - The Pioneer School - Bing video

   Again, please let me know if you have viewed the whole video.  This will be my request for every TLR thread.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

11/11/21

So I listened to the whole lesson. I believe God is living and active today on the earth to recover His intention regarding the church. With this I agree. Here are some points for discussion:

1. His repeated use of the term "the normal christian life" leads me to believe that he has read, as many have, a book by Watchman Nee titled "The Normal Christian Life." This book is full of truth and light and has been a big help to many believers. The Lord's recovery in our time began with brother Watchman Nee in China in the 1920's and continues today all over the world. 

2. Because God is the God of recovery, the study of church history is a basic part of our learning. It is interesting that in his presentation, he left out the Moravians, which was a major move of the Spirit in the 1700's and famously resulted in a 100 year prayer meeting and people migrating all over the world to preach the gospel including early America. He also left out the British Brethren, who in the early 1800's were among the first to come out of religion and meet simply as "brothers" with no clergy and no hierarchy. By including the Apostolic church with the "five-fold ministry gifts" I feel is a mistake and deviation from the Lord's recovery. A sister in Azusa Street fled, in other words divided, from the revival there and absconded with the mailing list, in other words the bread and butter, the revenue flow, and went to Portland, Oregon and began the Apostolic church. This in my opinion is not in the line of the Lord's recovery, but a serious deviation which has come to nothing.

3. At the 47:30 minute mark he says, "I love the church and want to see a reformation." At the 49:43 minute mark he says " a reformation of making disciples." Babylon the great is the mother of harlots. In my understanding, Catholicism, as a religious system, is Babylon, and the Protestant denominations (as religious systems) are the daughters, the offspring of the Harlot. Therefore, I would not call the denominations the church. The church is the aggregate of the true believers. Therefore I do not believe God will ever "reform" these systems, but has called His true believers to come out of them, but into what?

4. If we go back to the book of Acts, as I believe we should, we should eventually see that the disciples, the believers spontaneously "the church" in that place. 

Acts 5:11 And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all those who heard these things.

Acts 8:1 And Saul approved of his killing. And there occurred in that day a great persecution against the church which was in Jerusalem; and all were scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.

These are a few points. I have more if you want to have a discussion.

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

11/11/21

   Love you brother!!!!  (1)  OK  (2)  I believe Torbin is identifying the church as: born again believers.  As such, his appeal is to such believers under the sway of the errors he addresses. The groups you mention are of the same Spirit as Torbin, IMO.. It is a very strong out pouring of the Spirit to come out from things which have been established through error, confusion, and the outright lies of our enemy for 2000 years.  Paul said, though he, or an angel of GOD preach another gospel.............    (3) me and Torbin agree  :)   Yes, to me this is the best example of what I started this forum for in 2000 = Malachi 3:16-18.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

11/11/21

PAULFROMNYS said:

..........    (3) me and Torbin agree  :)   Yes, to me this is the best example of what I started this forum for in 2000 = Malachi 3:16-18.

Amen Paul. My point is not to contend with you, but to present points for fellowship and discussion on you forum. I wish we had more participants.

 The history, the state of Christendom, the need for a recovery of the normal Christian life and the normal Christian church life, I agree whole heartedly with all of that. What that looks like, what is the goal, what is the focus, I probably have a different view than brother Torbin. I am happy to discuss it with you though and give you my reasons.

Going back to the Bible, which Torbin mentions repeatedly, involves several matters. Firstly, is the issue in question in the Bible. The second matter is what is the emphasis of the topic in question. Is it emphasized in the Scripture. People tend to strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. They tend to make small things into major matters and things which are emphasized in the Scriptures they dismiss.

For example, speaking in tongues, is it in the Bible? Yes. Is it emphasized in the Bible? 1 Corinthians 14 seems to de-emphasize speaking in tongues and heavily promote prophesying.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but he who prophesies builds up the church.

I would not argue against speaking in tongues because it is in the Bible. I would however question whether what God is doing is bringing a reformation in tongue speaking. I do believe He is recovering the building up of the church. This would necessitate a recovery of the practice of prophesying. 

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

11/11/21

   Amen, same here Fred, I also wish there were a couple earnest sharing brothers.  

    Tongues is a precious gift and open to much conjecture also, but it may well be seen as hand in hand with the initial receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 14:4 speaks to corporate growth, but as regarding personal growth 14:18 is worth consideration. 

   I think the primary consideration here, and what Torbin asserts, is that tongues attends the initial experience with the Holy Spirit.  My personal experience does not bear that out at this point, but my personal experience is also full of things which a knowing of the truth might have sparred me.  Whether or not it is supposed to attend our initial experience could be argued endlessly IMO.  What I see thus far tells me of a powerful conversion experience being the hallmark of TLR with strong realization of things I have battled through for decades.  Bottomline, I'm very OK with the TLR on this point, as I am with your concern.  I spent a week with TLR in Florida this year, 3 gatherings a day, and prophecy was very prevalent in the evening worship service.  They are a young movement, but every move I've seen them make to this point has been good IMO, and possible reflecting the leading of the Holy Spirit in a very powerful, now sense.   

PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

11/11/21

   Also, I've experienced very interesting intersections with TLR, and TAS.  Many time the understanding expressed through TAS goes right with what I'm seeing in TLR.

In reply toRe: msg 6
PAULFROMNYS

From: PAULFROMNYS

11/11/21

  also   :)   We(((the corporate))) need universal expressions of truth as from GOD to open our lives to, as the scriptures in themselves are appealed to in every fragment of believers.  This to me is the importance of a living now 5 fold ministry from our head, through the highest places of the church down into every single member.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

11/12/21

PAULFROMNYS said:

.  What I see thus far tells me of a powerful conversion experience being the hallmark of TLR with strong realization of things I have battled through for decades. 

No one can argue with results. Powerful conversions must become the norm. 

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

11/12/21

PAULFROMNYS said:

 Also, I've experienced very interesting intersections with TLR, and TAS.  Many time the understanding expressed through TAS goes right with what I'm seeing in TLR.

Well I agree. They represent a sizable segment of believers who have seen something of the degradation of the Christian religion, and attempt to participate in some kind of restoration. Spark's vision was to minister to Christians in general both at his ministry center at Honor Oak in England, as well as ministry centers in major cities around the world. I don't know that he ever accomplished his vision, but today is very popular with the "house church" movement and other free groups. I have been familiar with TA Sparks and his ministry for many years.

I have not yet heard enough to get a feel for brother Torben's vision. I have never heard of him before you started posting videos. He says many things which I am very familiar with, for example, the book of Acts having no conclusion and that we are the continuation of the book of Acts. This is in our study of Acts. I would be interested to learn what he is laboring toward. What does he see as the result of his ministry. 

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

11/12/21

PAULFROMNYS said:

We(((the corporate))) need universal expressions of truth as from GOD to open our lives to, as the scriptures in themselves are appealed to in every fragment of believers. 

It seems to me that among the true, regenerated children of God, there are at least three kinds.

1. Those who are in any given denomination or non-denomination or free group and are happy there, totally content. I know many like this.

2. Those who have seen the error and evil of Babylon and her daughters and have come out but are unsure or unwilling to enter into what God is doing today. I also know some like this.

3. Those who have entered into God's recovery by life to participate in the building up of the Body of Christ by being gathered into one in local churches to keep the oneness of the Spirit until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith. This will end the age, prepare the bride, bring in the kingdom, and consummate in the New Jerusalem. This is our vision.

TOP