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Based on Malachi 3:16-18 I believe the Lord will harken to us as we consider his word together.

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The Believers Relationship with the Law of God   Bible discussions/all

Started 9/22/22 by Fred (fnorthrup); 883 views.
Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)


JS5777 said:

Then absolutely EVERY one of the promises that are contained in the Old Testament are nullified, and God is concluded as promising without fulfilling, and thereby defined as NOT being faithful and ALSO as being a liar, but my God is not so, He IS faithful and He DOES fulfill absolutely everything that He has spoken.

It is hard to make of what you mean by this.

We intend to mean what Paul meant by "the law of God."

Romans 7:7 Is the law sin? God forbid.

Romans 7:8 But now we are delivered from the law...for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came,

Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment,

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

It seems abundantly clear that when Paul said "the law", he meant the commandments, with their statutes and ordinances, not the entirety of the Old Testament. Do you think that Paul meant the entirety of the Old Testament when he spoke of "the law" so many times in Romans and Galatians?

I am not familiar with " the demonic lie of the hyper-grace heresy" sorry. I do believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone.

As for as I know, I am simply saying what Paul says, and preaching the gospel which he preached. If you can point our where I am wrong, I am happy to hear it.

James: "But the righteousness of the Law of God MUST be fulfilled in and through the Wife of the Lamb"

Perhaps you could say, based on Romans 8:4, "The righteous requirement of the law will be fulfilled by those who walk according to the Spirit." To put yourself under the law is to walk by the flesh, according to Romans 7.

Contrary to your statement, the apostle Paul said:

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Galatians 3:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Paul says we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), we are delivered from the law (7:8), That he is dead to the law (Galatians 2:20) and that those who bring themselves under the law are "foolish" and "bewitched." 

Galatians 3:1-2 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

It seems that Paul exhausted his vocabulary in the attempt to impress the saints with this very point we are discussing. Is Paul not saying that we are not in any way under the law?

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)


JS5777 said:

1 John 2:3      And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

What does John mean by "His commandments."

1 John 3:23 -24 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

When Paul said "the law" he left no room for doubt as to what he meant, the law of commandments in ordinances in the Old Testament.

When John said "His commandments" he also leaves no doubt what he is talking about. "Believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, love one another, abide in Him as He bides in us by the Spirit with our spirit. This is the New Covenant. He definitely did not mean the Old Testament law of commandments.

James: "All of those who remain in disobedience to the Law of God are STILL under the curse,"

According to Galatians 3, to be under the law is to be under a curse.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Christ redeemed us from under this curse

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The blessing is the Spirit through faith, having not one thing to do with the law. The Spirit with our spirit is the law we are under, the law of life, also known as grace.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Now that we have believed, we are no longer under this schoolmaster. We have been discharged from the law.

Galatians 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

romans 7:6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)


JS5777 said:

The Lord Jesus Christ did not walk contrary to the Law of God, He became the very fulfillment of the Law of God and He STILL is the very fulfillment of the Law of God IN and THROUGH every one that believes in Him.

No one has said that Jesus walked contrary to the law, but this is a good point. I believe that we can say that the righteous requirement of the law was fulfilled in Him, but I do not believe that you can say He was a man in the flesh living by the law. According to His word, He lived by eating the word, and lived because of the Father. In other words, He lived by the law of the Spirit of life, not by the law of commandments. Jesus did not need a school master to bring Him to God. He ate,(received) the rich grace and the sweet love of the Father and that is how He lived.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Isaiah 7:15 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

There is a world of difference between fulfilling the righteous requirement of the law by walking according to the Spirit, and being a person under the law. No one under the law, can fulfill the righteous requirement of the law. That is the whole point of Romans 7.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)


JS5777 said:

Mat 5:17         Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. The words “think not” is an imperative, it is a commandment.

Notice He says "fulfill" not "keep the law." This is the crux of our discussion. According to Paul, we believers are not under the law with any intention to keep the law. The righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled however, by those who walk according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

As I understand this, Jesus was joined to God based on the promise made to Abraham. He was the promised "Seed." What Moses did was to bring God's people into a "sheepfold", a corral, called the law, to keep them confined until Christ could come. Jesus was never in this sheepfold called the law. He was the Good Shepherd to bring us into life to lead them (and us) out of the fold into the rich green pasture, a figure of the grace of God in our spirit.

The New Testament begins with "The generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David (referring to the kingdom) the son of Abraham (referring to the promise of the Spirit) with no mention of Moses.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)


JS5777 said:

The law that has passed away because of the cross, is the law of sin and death, which came about because of the fall in sin. Again, the Law of God IS NOT the same as the law of sin and death.

When Paul speaks of the law that is in our members, the law of sin and death, he makes it plain.

Romans 7:17 , but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:

Romans 7:20 it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:21 evil is present with me.

Romans 7:23a But I see another law in my members

Romans 7:23b bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7:25 So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

These verse express what Paul calls, "sin that dwells in me" "evil is present in me" "a law in my members" "the law of sin" "the law of sin and death." 

Neither this law nor the law of God has passed away because of the cross. Many think that Romas 7 is the normal Christian experience, and it is Paul's testimony. It is neither. It is Paul carefully explaining what happens when we bring ourselves under the law. It brings sin and death.

Romans 7:10-11 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

With our good mind, we agree that we should keep the law (v.25), this arouses the flesh and brings us under another law, the law of sin and death. This is the subject of this chapter. We are freed from sin because we are freed from the law. (6:14)

Neither the law of sin and death nor the law of God was crucified with Christ. The old man, which was under the law (Romans 6:6), the "husband" in Romans 7:2 died, which the law regulated. We will have the flesh with us until we either die or the Lord returns. It is a grave error to think we are free from the law of sin and death in the flesh. It dwells in our members. The only answer is to turn to our spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is. He is the victory over sin and death. 

In a sense, we are back in the garden. Good is in our mind and evil is in our flesh. Life is the Spirit in our spirit. I chose life.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)


JS5777 said:

Mat 5:19         Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least (G1646) in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great (G3173) in the kingdom of heaven.

Ok lets talk about this verse. 

Paul said in Philippians 3:5-9, that in his former religious life, "as to touching the law, a to the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." He then said, after his conversion, that he did not wish to be found "having his own righteousness, which is out of the law."

Was he teaching men to break the commandments? He said he did not wish to have anything to do with the law. He counted his status as a Pharisee (the strictest of the law keepers) and as blameless under the law as dung. Should he be called least in the kingdom of heaven? I don't think so.

Christ did not come to help us keep the law. He came to replace the law and fulfill the righteous requirement of the law in us who walk according to the Spirit. Paul did not want to be found under the law, but to be found in Christ. This is my wish as well. 

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)


JS5777 said:

John 1:4    In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

You conclude with life. Life is God Himself. Life is the way.

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Christ , who is our life!!!!


From: JS5777


Who was the author of the Torah, God or Moses?







   There is so much to the Law through Moses that is typing and preparing for the reality.  I think the main danger in the insistence that the Law be part and parcel of life in Christ is that the Law appeals to men's soul to perform good and refuse evil.  Yet in the new covenant that reality of men's need to preform died with Christ.  What rises with Christ is a new nature realizing that it's only hope and joy is living through the risen glorified Christ by faith.  The accuser has no power as that life grows and becomes the reality of the believer.  Satan's primary tactic is to lure men to what all men's his earthly experience tells him = his life with GOD depends upon his performance, and this at the expense of the grace and mercy of GOD establishing life in Christ Jesus.  Yet what is defined as life from GOD in the law is indeed of increasing import to those coming to Him through Christ.  As the love of GOD clears out all that nature of man which would at any point displease GOD, the holiness of GOD finds ever increasing manifestation in His own.  This not through the insistence on performance, but rather in the reality of relationship growing into Christ Jesus' love, trust, and fear of GOD.




From: JS5777


If you will notice that in every posting that I have made about the Law of God, I am very careful to state, without fail,

that the fulfillment of the Law of God IS NOT by our own works WITHOUT HIM, and that it is ONLY possible by and through the power of His Life dwelling within us to fulfill His own obedience through us.

Sadly, there are some people that think that ANY fulfilling of ANY part of the Law of God has been completely eliminated.

But the Law of God describes how His character behaves, and if THAT is eliminated... then the result is that we can behave in just any way that the flesh in its fallen condition imagines to do, and STILL claim salvation.

But there ARE changes in our behavior that naturally and automatically happen when we have been saved and filled with the very Life of God.

Those changes reflect His character and fulfill every description of His behavior.

Just because it happens THROUGH our flesh, does NOT mean that it is being done BY the nonexistent abilities of the fallen flesh WITHOUT Him.

This is a concept that is difficult for some people to understand because they have not experienced the living reality of the power of His Life dwelling within themselves.

But just because they do not understand it, or just because they have not experienced it, DOES NOT mean that it does not exist or that it is impossible, or that the manifestation of the power of His Life through us to fulfill the expressions of His character through us, in some way bring us into bondage.

Just the opposite, THAT expression of the power of His life is the very thing that shows us that our experience with His salvation is a living reality.

We are NOT saved by the works that we try to do WITHOUT Him, but if we are saved, His works WILL follow and demonstrate the living reality that He is, even through our flesh, because the Power of His Life is far greater than ANY and ALL of the results of the fall in sin, so much so that there eventually is coming a change in our mortal bodies.

But the change begins in the inner man being conformed to His divine nature FIRST, then the change in our bodies will follow at its ordained time.

It is ALL a resurrection, either from the dead works of sin, or from the saved physically coming forth from the graves, and the most of the time it is BOTH.