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The Believers Relationship with the Law of God   Bible discussions/all

Started 9/22/22 by Fred (fnorthrup); 875 views.
JS5777

From: JS5777

9/24/22

Just a little more provoking...

Is there ANY Law that the believer is under or in subjection to?

 

Shalom,

JS5777

In reply toRe: msg 7
Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/24/22

JS5777 said:

Just a little more provoking... Is there ANY Law that the believer is under or in subjection to?

I welcome provoking brother. I have discovered that revelation in the Bible sense does not mean seeing visions and revelations that are not in the Holy Scriptures. The very word apokalupsis means to remove the veil, that we may see what is plainly written. 

Of course the New Covenant has a new commandment, love one another. If we are enjoying the Lord in our spirit, and expressing Him in our relationships with one another, this is the fulfillment of the entirety of the law of commandments in ordinances.

What pleases God? Not law keeping, but to reveal His Son in us.

Galatians 1:16-16a But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
To reveal his Son in me,

Romans and Galatians both have a verse as to what law we are under.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Romans 13:8-9 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself
.

In reply toRe: msg 7
Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/25/22

JS5777 said:

Is there ANY Law that the believer is under

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

The law of Christ: This is the higher and better law of life which works through love and empowers us to bear one another's burdens. God the Father has sent the Spirit of His Son into us. This person in our spirit is the higher and better law, the law of the Spirit of life.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

The more this Person increases in us, the more He is formed in us.

Colossians 2:19b ...holding the Head, from which all the Body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increases with the increase of God.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

I admit, it is not easy to see that we are not in any way under the law of God, and how and why it is that we are not under the law. In fact, any attempt to keep the law will bring the believer under the bondage of sin and death. 

Many believe that Romans 7 is the normal Christian experience and Paul's testimony. No! It is the result of bringing oneself under the law. That is why it begins with, "Don't you know?", or "Are you ignorant?"

It is equally not easy to see what grace is in the Scriptures. I agree with John Newton that grace is amazing, but to say that it is simply unmerited favor is far, far, far short of what is revealed in the Scriptures. We are not under law, but under grace.

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. Amen.

JS5777

From: JS5777

9/25/22

Fred said: "I admit, it is not easy to see that we are not in ANY WAY under the law of God, and how and why it is that we are not under the law."

Then absolutely EVERY one of the promises that are contained in the Old Testament are nullified, and God is concluded as promising without fulfilling, and thereby defined as NOT being faithful and ALSO as being a liar, but my God is not so, He IS faithful and He DOES fulfill absolutely everything that He has spoken.

The coming of Christ into the world in NO WAY causes any part of the Old Testament to no longer be the Word of God.

Deu 8:3  And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Mat 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Luke 4:4  And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

By saying that "we are not in ANY WAY under the law of God" makes the above three scripture passages to be meaningless and also constitutes rebellion (1 Sam 15:23).

Fred said: "In fact, any attempt to keep the law will bring the believer under the bondage of sin and death."

The Law of God IS NOT the same thing as the law of sin and death.

While it is true that if we attempt to fulfill the Law of God WITHOUT HIM, we will fail, because attempting to do so WITHOUT HIM signifies a separating of ourselves from Him, the apostasy/divorce, in which we can do nothing, but WITH HIM. ALL THINGS are possible, even the fulfilling of the Law of God. But it is done THROUGH us, not of our own nonexistent abilities WITHOUT HIM, but by and through Him living and dwelling in us and manifesting EVERYTHING that describes the behavior of His character, thus bringing us back into fellowship/relationship WITH Him and restoring us back to His image and likeness.

By making the statement that "we are not in ANY WAY under the law of God" is exactly what constitutes the demonic lie of the hyper-grace (antinomianism) heresy, and eventually concludes in the lawlessness that the Apostle Paul said "God forbid" about, of sinning so that "grace should abound".

I have encountered several such people, who even go so far as to say that "we are not even saved by ANY of the works that ANYONE has done, NOT EVEN those that were none by the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross", and they are so deceived that they do not even recognize that they are preaching their own condemnation.

But the righteousness of the Law of God MUST be fulfilled in and through the Wife of the Lamb, because THAT fulfilling is the VERY wedding garments with which She is attired, and without which NO ONE will have entrance into the Wedding Supper of the Lamb.

Therefore, it is not by the works that WE have done (WITHOUT HIM), it IS by the works that HE HAS DONE and is STILL doing in and THROUGH us, and THOSE WORKS DO fulfill the Law of God.

The ONLY way that the penalty (curse) of the Law of God, which comes upon the disobedient, can be avoided, is by the Power of the Life of God dwelling within us and by Him fulfilling His own Law THROUGH us in obedience. Access to THAT Life-giving power has been made available to us by and through the works that the Lord Jesus Christ did for us on the cross by pouring out His own blood, and the Life that was/is in the blood dwelling within us to fulfill His own Law, and by fulfilling in obedience, He brings us into the blessings and promises that are contained in the Law of God, AND by THAT (His) obedience, we escape the curse of the Law upon the disobedient.

In THIS, absolutely NO jot or tittle of the Word of God is ignored or nullified, and His righteousness is fulfilled in and through us, again ONLY by His power living within us.

All of those who remain in disobedience to the Law of God are STILL under the curse, because of their disobedience, even after the way has been provided for us to become obedient.

The power of the Spirit of God liberates us from the curse of the disobedient by bringing us into obedience and THAT liberty in NO WAY brings us into the bondage of the law of sin and death, which came about because of the fall in sin.

1 John 2:3      And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4      He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:5      But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 2:6      He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

The Lord Jesus Christ did not walk contrary to the Law of God, He became the very fulfillment of the Law of God and He STILL is the very fulfillment of the Law of God IN and THROUGH every one that believes in Him.

Mat 5:17         Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The words “think not” is an imperative, it is a commandment.

What is it that we are commanded to not even think? That He came to destroy the law, or the prophets.

He is STILL fulfilling the Law of God IN and THROUGH every one that believes in Him.

Mat 5:18        
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  • Edited September 25, 2022 7:15 pm  by  JS5777
Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/25/22

JS5777 said:

Then absolutely EVERY one of the promises that are contained in the Old Testament are nullified, and God is concluded as promising without fulfilling, and thereby defined as NOT being faithful and ALSO as being a liar, but my God is not so, He IS faithful and He DOES fulfill absolutely everything that He has spoken.

It is hard to make of what you mean by this.

We intend to mean what Paul meant by "the law of God."

Romans 7:7 Is the law sin? God forbid.

Romans 7:8 But now we are delivered from the law...for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came,

Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment,

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

It seems abundantly clear that when Paul said "the law", he meant the commandments, with their statutes and ordinances, not the entirety of the Old Testament. Do you think that Paul meant the entirety of the Old Testament when he spoke of "the law" so many times in Romans and Galatians?

I am not familiar with " the demonic lie of the hyper-grace heresy" sorry. I do believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone.

As for as I know, I am simply saying what Paul says, and preaching the gospel which he preached. If you can point our where I am wrong, I am happy to hear it.

James: "But the righteousness of the Law of God MUST be fulfilled in and through the Wife of the Lamb"

Perhaps you could say, based on Romans 8:4, "The righteous requirement of the law will be fulfilled by those who walk according to the Spirit." To put yourself under the law is to walk by the flesh, according to Romans 7.

Contrary to your statement, the apostle Paul said:

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Galatians 3:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Paul says we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), we are delivered from the law (7:8), That he is dead to the law (Galatians 2:20) and that those who bring themselves under the law are "foolish" and "bewitched." 

Galatians 3:1-2 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

It seems that Paul exhausted his vocabulary in the attempt to impress the saints with this very point we are discussing. Is Paul not saying that we are not in any way under the law?

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/25/22

JS5777 said:

1 John 2:3      And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

What does John mean by "His commandments."

1 John 3:23 -24 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

When Paul said "the law" he left no room for doubt as to what he meant, the law of commandments in ordinances in the Old Testament.

When John said "His commandments" he also leaves no doubt what he is talking about. "Believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, love one another, abide in Him as He bides in us by the Spirit with our spirit. This is the New Covenant. He definitely did not mean the Old Testament law of commandments.

James: "All of those who remain in disobedience to the Law of God are STILL under the curse,"

According to Galatians 3, to be under the law is to be under a curse.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Christ redeemed us from under this curse

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The blessing is the Spirit through faith, having not one thing to do with the law. The Spirit with our spirit is the law we are under, the law of life, also known as grace.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Now that we have believed, we are no longer under this schoolmaster. We have been discharged from the law.

Galatians 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

romans 7:6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/25/22

JS5777 said:

The Lord Jesus Christ did not walk contrary to the Law of God, He became the very fulfillment of the Law of God and He STILL is the very fulfillment of the Law of God IN and THROUGH every one that believes in Him.

No one has said that Jesus walked contrary to the law, but this is a good point. I believe that we can say that the righteous requirement of the law was fulfilled in Him, but I do not believe that you can say He was a man in the flesh living by the law. According to His word, He lived by eating the word, and lived because of the Father. In other words, He lived by the law of the Spirit of life, not by the law of commandments. Jesus did not need a school master to bring Him to God. He ate,(received) the rich grace and the sweet love of the Father and that is how He lived.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Isaiah 7:15 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

There is a world of difference between fulfilling the righteous requirement of the law by walking according to the Spirit, and being a person under the law. No one under the law, can fulfill the righteous requirement of the law. That is the whole point of Romans 7.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/25/22

JS5777 said:

Mat 5:17         Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. The words “think not” is an imperative, it is a commandment.

Notice He says "fulfill" not "keep the law." This is the crux of our discussion. According to Paul, we believers are not under the law with any intention to keep the law. The righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled however, by those who walk according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

As I understand this, Jesus was joined to God based on the promise made to Abraham. He was the promised "Seed." What Moses did was to bring God's people into a "sheepfold", a corral, called the law, to keep them confined until Christ could come. Jesus was never in this sheepfold called the law. He was the Good Shepherd to bring us into life to lead them (and us) out of the fold into the rich green pasture, a figure of the grace of God in our spirit.

The New Testament begins with "The generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David (referring to the kingdom) the son of Abraham (referring to the promise of the Spirit) with no mention of Moses.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/25/22

JS5777 said:

The law that has passed away because of the cross, is the law of sin and death, which came about because of the fall in sin. Again, the Law of God IS NOT the same as the law of sin and death.

When Paul speaks of the law that is in our members, the law of sin and death, he makes it plain.

Romans 7:17 , but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:

Romans 7:20 it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:21 evil is present with me.

Romans 7:23a But I see another law in my members

Romans 7:23b bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7:25 So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

These verse express what Paul calls, "sin that dwells in me" "evil is present in me" "a law in my members" "the law of sin" "the law of sin and death." 

Neither this law nor the law of God has passed away because of the cross. Many think that Romas 7 is the normal Christian experience, and it is Paul's testimony. It is neither. It is Paul carefully explaining what happens when we bring ourselves under the law. It brings sin and death.

Romans 7:10-11 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

With our good mind, we agree that we should keep the law (v.25), this arouses the flesh and brings us under another law, the law of sin and death. This is the subject of this chapter. We are freed from sin because we are freed from the law. (6:14)

Neither the law of sin and death nor the law of God was crucified with Christ. The old man, which was under the law (Romans 6:6), the "husband" in Romans 7:2 died, which the law regulated. We will have the flesh with us until we either die or the Lord returns. It is a grave error to think we are free from the law of sin and death in the flesh. It dwells in our members. The only answer is to turn to our spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is. He is the victory over sin and death. 

In a sense, we are back in the garden. Good is in our mind and evil is in our flesh. Life is the Spirit in our spirit. I chose life.

Fred (fnorthrup)

From: Fred (fnorthrup)

9/25/22

JS5777 said:

Mat 5:19         Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least (G1646) in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great (G3173) in the kingdom of heaven.

Ok lets talk about this verse. 

Paul said in Philippians 3:5-9, that in his former religious life, "as to touching the law, a Pharisee...as to the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." He then said, after his conversion, that he did not wish to be found "having his own righteousness, which is out of the law."

Was he teaching men to break the commandments? He said he did not wish to have anything to do with the law. He counted his status as a Pharisee (the strictest of the law keepers) and as blameless under the law as dung. Should he be called least in the kingdom of heaven? I don't think so.

Christ did not come to help us keep the law. He came to replace the law and fulfill the righteous requirement of the law in us who walk according to the Spirit. Paul did not want to be found under the law, but to be found in Christ. This is my wish as well. 

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